Ok I have been toying with a level 30 bard build to get maximum bard song, I was thinking charisma heavy (around 30) to help with the required perform skill. This leaves 10 levels to play with, as it seems a shame to waste that charisma I wanted Paladin or Blackguard for the saves boosts.

I'd have preferred Paladin but whilst the server I play on allows swings from Good to evil and vice versa I haven't discovered a way to go from Chaos to Law.

So I thought 4 levels of Blackguard, this gets me a nice save boost, bulls strength and allows me to take diveine might and divine shield. If I take them pre epic I can also achieve 4 attacks per round.

This leaves me 6 levels to play with - after checking the search engine I'm still at a loss.

More bard is pointless as it will only get me more bard song uses - and with lasting inspiration and bard 30 I doubt I will need any more.

Blaackguard to 10 will get me a couple of summons and some sneak attack.

Palemaster 6 gets me a small boost to AC, a bone arm and a couple of summons

Red Dragon Disciple would get me a small boost to AC and +4 strength

If I shift alignment CoT will net me 3 feats and +3 to saves, as well as a low level lay on hands.

Fighter could get me WS and EWS but then i'd feel obliged to use that weapon all the time - and I like the fact with UMD I can pick up and use almost every weapon in the game.

At the cost of two pre epic feats and an alignment change I could take harper scout post epic and net two more grea charisma's then take Blackguard to level 5.

I havent actually decided on a build yet but have played around with the above choices in a character creator. So far the boost to strength from RDD or the extra feats from CoT (even with the alignment shift) seem to be the better options.

So what would people suggest? 6 levels of a class to mix with a bard 30/Blackguard 4 and bearing in mind that changing alignment along the law/chaos axis isn't available - which rules out 6 levels of monk or paladin, both of which would go really well......

thx in advance for any and all help.
Quote: Fighter could get me WS and EWS but then i'd feel obliged to use that weapon all the time - and I like the fact with UMD I can pick up and use almost every weapon in the game.

Very often a weapon you can get to use thanks to UMD gives stuff useless for your classes, UMD doesn't trespass through Weapon Proficiencies, so I don't see what's the problem with the Fighter, EWS gives 6 damage, and another 2 feats are always good.

Dwarven Defender? , you might think you get nothing, but you get 3 DR, a little bit more HP, Defensive Stance, and Defensive Awareness II which works like Uncanny Dodge covering DEX and immunity to fanlking...

6 Monk levels give you IKD, Evasion, Cleave, Deflect Arrows, you would actually get even more saves if I'm correct, and if you like, super kama cheesiness (at the cost of Armor), anyway, without using the kamas, Monk will give you some neat feats; Cleave is needed for Blackguard anyway, I think Monk is a very good option.
Quote: Posted 06/27/06 21:11:08 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia

Dwarven Defender? , you might think you get nothing, but you get 3 DR, a little bit more HP, Defensive Stance, and Defensive Awareness II which works like Uncanny Dodge covering DEX and immunity to fanlking...

6 Monk levels give you IKD, Evasion, Cleave, Deflect Arrows, you would actually get even more saves if I'm correct, and if you like, super kama cheesiness (at the cost of Armor), anyway, without using the kamas, Monk will give you some neat feats; Cleave is needed for Blackguard anyway, I think Monk is a very good option.

Perhaps you didn't notice but he especially stated he isn't able to change his alignment to lawful, which is why he's posting this. Both Monk and DD require a lawful alignment.

Anyway, I'd suggest either PM or RDD. Or, if you're a DEXer, Rogue/SD if you can meet the prereqs. PM's basically +4 AC with 4 levels, and RDD's +2 AC +4 STR with 6 levels.
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Our aims self-same:
The Guest of Guests, friend Zarathustra, came!
The world now laughs, the grisly veil was torn,
And Light and Dark were one that wedding-morn." 6 levels of FTR gets you 4 bonus feats. Nothing says you must use them for Weapon Focus/Specialization...

You could pick up any of Blind Fight, Knockdown, Imp KD, Disarm, Imp Disarm, Imp Crit (although this ties you to a specific weapon as well), Power Attack, Cleave, Expertise, Imp Expertise, just to name a few.
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Quote: Posted 06/27/06 22:19:23 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din

6 levels of FTR gets you 4 bonus feats. Nothing says you must use them for Weapon Focus/Specialization...

You could pick up any of Blind Fight, Knockdown, Imp KD, Disarm, Imp Disarm, Imp Crit (although this ties you to a specific weapon as well), Power Attack, Cleave, Expertise, Imp Expertise, just to name a few.

Yeah, that's pretty obvious (though perhaps not to everyone ). Good point, sir
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"We keep our Feast of Feasts, sure of our bourne,
Our aims self-same:
The Guest of Guests, friend Zarathustra, came!
The world now laughs, the grisly veil was torn,
And Light and Dark were one that wedding-morn." You can also add some lvls of Barbarian. You get more speed, uncanny dodge to go with your dodge armor bonus from divine shield, and rage to add to your con and str.
In a low magic setting the str bonus will be valuable since you can add bulls from bard spell and BG feat to the rage bonus with minimum +8 to str and +12 almost 40% of the times.
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The curve is more powerful than the sword
-- BG courtesan
Quote: Perhaps you didn't notice but he especially stated he isn't able to change his alignment to lawful, which is why he's posting this. Both Monk and DD require a lawful alignment.

*Bangs head to a wall, then a tree and the floor*

Sorry for that.

Quote: 6 levels of FTR gets you 4 bonus feats. Nothing says you must use them for Weapon Focus/Specialization...

You could pick up any of Blind Fight, Knockdown, Imp KD, Disarm, Imp Disarm, Imp Crit (although this ties you to a specific weapon as well), Power Attack, Cleave, Expertise, Imp Expertise, just to name a few.

Very true, although WS/EWS aren't crappy feats, I still don't get why someone wouldn't like +6 damage... but it seems to be the case.

Anyway, Fighter levels also allows you to take some Epic feats as bonus even if the Fighter class is low, such as Armor Skin, Epic Prowess, Epic Toughness, Epic Weapon Focus (darn, focuses are tied to a weapon, don't tell you you don't want focuses man!?), or EDR if you meet the prerequisites.

Quote: You can also add some lvls of Barbarian. You get more speed, uncanny dodge to go with your dodge armor bonus from divine shield, and rage to add to your con and str.
In a low magic setting the str bonus will be valuable since you can add bulls from bard spell and BG feat to the rage bonus with minimum +8 to str and +12 almost 40% of the times.

Well, I believe Uncanny Dodge does not covers Dodge modifier, the description clearly says it covers DEX, but the Barbarian could work.


So, if you don't like the Fighter's feats, I'd take RDD, I don't think your AB is high with so much CHA investment (or show us the build you've got), and +4 STR could have its use. As Thax pointed out, Uncanny Dodge has no effect on keeping your Dodge AC. It only lets you retain your DEX-based AC. If flat-footed, you still lose all Dodge bonuses (including Tumble).
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This signature will self-destruct in 5 seconds... Yeah, you're right. Guess I mixed things up a little this time.
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The curve is more powerful than the sword
-- BG courtesan Thanks for the advice guys - I hadn't considered barbarian...

as for not wanting weapon focus etc. and knocking 6 damage I'm not. its just if i focus and specialise in say rapier but then find a great holy avenger longsword i could wield with UMD i'll still think i need to use a rapier otherwise i'll be wasting the feats - i guess im just like that.

hmmmmmm i'll have to have a play about - fighter, PM or RDD still winning....


(and yes i confess to only thinking of fighter as WS and EWS - ignoring the fact that bonus feats are bonus feats regardless....) I don't know how fixed you are on maxing bard song. If you are considering going 6 levels in either RDD or Pale Master the trade off to stopping bard song at 26 would be:

Lose:
8 HP
1 AC
4 Skill Ranks
All temporary benefits while getting 100 perform is almost impossible. 80 would be much easier to attain.

Gains:
RDD - 10 levels versus 6
+2 Con (40 permanent HP's)
+2 Int (1 Skill Point per level after achieved)
+2 Chr (Always desirable in a Chr based build)
+4 Str (+2 Melee Damage and carrying capacity)
Immunity to Fire, Paralysis & Sleep

Pale Master - 10 levels versus 6
+2 AC (Permanent)
Summon Spectre
Immunity to Crit's & Sneaks
12 more HP's for deathless vigor

Your call, but I just thought it should be mentioned.
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Him? That can't be William Wallace. I'm prettier than this man. Immunities to Fire, Paralisis and Sleep come until RDD level 10.

The STR would also give him AB, I hardly think taking RDD would be a dexer build, that's just wrong, you need to take advantage of what you get.

EDIT: Wait a second... you're pointing for him to take 10 RDD or PM levels!? that kind of gets it right, sorry man. Still, he said he only had 6 levels, the RDD does gives some cool bonuses for taking level 10.

I do not know much about Bardsong, I've never taken over 16 Bard levels... but losing 1 AC? I though he maxed the AC bonus it gives way before.

Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 06/29/06 03:20

Level 25 Bard Song gives another +1 Dodge AC (total +6), and level 30 Bard Song gives yet another (total +7). Of course, the big problem is getting the Perform ranks...
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This signature will self-destruct in 5 seconds... I wasn't very clear in my previous post, I was trying to point out that sacrificing 4 or 5 bard levels doesn't adversely affect the build too much and that the levels would be better spent taking either RDD or PM to level 10.

It's obviously the OP's call. They may have good reasons to want 30 levels of bard of which I'm not aware.
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Him? That can't be William Wallace. I'm prettier than this man. Yeah I'd thought of 10 of RDD or PM, however I'm curious to try a bard build with fully maxed bard song. which means level 30 and perform 100

with 43 perform, skill and epic skill focus perform, 30 charisma, epic gloves of the minstrel and +12 charisma items i make it something like 102 perform skill.

+12 cha items should be possible on the server i play on with eagles splendour cast.

means i cut back on other things though and the build is far from a power build. I'm playing around with various options at the minute - might have a build up by the weekend to be torn apart and rebuilt. A build with lvl 30 Bard song is quite a power. In a party you will have a great effect with your song giving a substantial bonus to AB, damage, AC, HPs, saves and skills. The effect of the curse song can be devastating.
Just the effect on skills alone can be enough to turn the tables completely. The song gives a +19 bonus to all skills and the curse song has a negative effect of the same magnitude.
This greatly increases the chance of spotting a hidden enemy, disarming or knocking him down, or perhaps taunting him, just to give some examples.
Your rogue will also be able to sneak around scouting and clearing the path of traps like never before.
With a high bard lvl and high charisma, you can also have some fun with the enchantment spells. Unless you are on a server where every creature has immunity to mind spells.
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The curve is more powerful than the sword
-- BG courtesan