I'd like to see what you guys come up with when put up to a chalenge.
Here's the criteria:
Make an Epic Gargoyle build that is lvl 40 PvP focused.
I'd like to see a build layout AND your fighting tactic. I think it would be interesting to see the various approaches used.
good luck!
Nobody is up for it?
Finnious? Cin? Grizled Dwarf? anyone?
I've never played a gargoyle - what's it supposed to do? _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
NO one's up to it for a few reasons. The most important reason is this :Epic gargoyle is BUGGED!! (or atleast at one point it was, and we all left that shape).
The other thing is that the gargoyle, in my limited experience was also the worst of the shapes! _________________
I've never played a Shifter and know almost nothing about them, so this isn't a challenge I'm willing to face. Learning curve's too steep. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Well, doesn't the gargoyle have 25/+7 damage reduction and 25/- piercing reduction? Or is that the part that is bugged? Might be able to work a druid/shifter/dwarven defender if not...
Doesn't seem bugged to me, I'm having lots of fun in it with my Epic Shifter.
I can come up with something aimed for Gargoyle, AB will suck though. It's a good shape in itself, but not one on which I'd focus.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Looking for a realm of adventure? Check out World of Greyhawk, you won't regret it.
I know that of all of the shifter forms, Gargoyle and Harpy are the two worst forms. That's the whole point of this chalenge. I wanted to see how some of the clever minds out there can turn a pile of dung into a piece of art.
It's EASY to make certain builds shine. Dev Crit, Palemaster, RDD, etc... But trying to come up with a Gargoyle build that can be usefull is VERY hard to do.
I just thought that some of you guys were bored with the regular ho-hum builds that are tweeks upon things already out there. Well... there are NO Epic Gargoyles out there (lol with good reason of course).
So even if you don't play a shifter all that often... you can still apply TACTICS of your other builds and try to mesh them onto a Gargoyle.
It's a hard chalenge, but that's what it's all about.
Well, this may help. IT did for me.
Quote: (5.2.2) Gargoyle Shape
Damage Reduction is the major draw of this Shape, combined with the best CN bonus and AC (tied with the Harpy). Useful for defensive slugfests against non- magic-wielding hordes, you'll shrug off their pitiful little damage as you tear through them at your leisure. Gargoyles are consistently at the bottom of the damage potential lists (see Section 7), so be sure to buff your ST for additional damage and To Hit bonuses.
ST:20 DX:20 CN: IN: WS: CH: AC: 27 (+12 Natural +5 DX) HP: +60 To Hit: BAB+5 Attacks: Claw/Claw/Bite 1d8+5/1d8+5/1d6+5 (20/x2) Special: !!! NOTHING !!! due to a game bug (see Appendix G.4) Unarmed: Yes
(G.4) The Epic Pink Soft Bunny Please Kill Me Now Bug
The game resource listed as the Epic Gargoyle's skin, x2_it_egargprop, is missing from the game. Whatever properties are defined in this skin (very likely including some form of epic Damage Reduction) are therefore missing from the Epic Gargoyle.
Effectively this turns your Epic Gargoyle into an Epic Pink Soft Bunny Please Kill Me Now. Yes, I am copyrighting that name.
No real game effect, as I can't imagine anyone spending much time in Epic Gargoyle Shape anyway.
Maybe, bioware fixed it! LOL Anyway, it seems like there is no challenge, cuz, well... read above. I could get better DR from a ring i found the other day!
TO tell the truth, I built a shifter or 2 in my day, but I always found them best in low magic worlds. ITs sad when you invest so much into a build with 3 apr and find out that your itms make you better than the shapes. Sad but true. _________________
Well, I tested this (just to make sure) and I was getting damage reduction in gargoyle form. I didn't use any dwarven defender, just druid and shifter, and I was resisting attacks. Not sure if it's the right amount or not, but it was working....
DR works nicely now, both the reductuion and the resistance (stacking when they should). DwD/Barb/EDR will kick in only vs +7 or higher enchantment weapons or if it gets higher than 25 (which makes the Epic Gargoyle DR worthless at that point). Items with damage resistance stack properly with Gargoyle damage reduction.
The problem with Epic Gargoyle is that it overrides both STR and DEX, so you can't pump an AB stat and make it more offensive. CON doesn't get overridden, which is bad for a shape which already is so defensive and gifted with good DR. Gloves not merging (in any shape for the record) surely does nothing to help an unarmed shape with a lowish dmg output and AB.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Heavy metal Or no metal at all Whimps and posers Leave the hall!
My tactic with this build would be to focus on the Bard spells/abilities while venturing forth in gargoyle form. Singing to inspire any fellow team mates, and cursing groups of baddies.
I did not take Armor Skin because I actually want people to hit me. Using the Bard Spell Wonding Wispers will create a nasty little surprise for anyone who tries to hit me.
- Bard song for buffing - spell buff next. - maximize or extend the wounding wispers. - shift to Gargoyle - find badguys and curse song them - stand and take a beating and see them hurt themselves on your wounding wispers.
Con is 22 because we need hitpoints and fortitude with this build. Trying to max out fortitude will help save vs dev crit. Fire and Ice protection is always a good idea. Max out Disc since you don't want to be KD on the ground to much. Taunt was taken in case you are part of a group and they want to melle your opponent. Could be substituded for Heal since you'll probably need some good way to restore your health.
===
I do not have the final stats of the Shifted form other than what Epic Gargoyle grants:
Epic Gargoyle str 20 dex 20 HP +60 ac 27 BAB+5 Claw/Claw/Bite 1d8+5/1d8+5/1d6+5 (20/×2)
DR 25/+7 DR 25/- piercing
===
It's not a perfect build, but it at least makes the Epic Gargoyle look a little better.
Comments?
Would there be any way to fit it any of the EDR feats to help against a critical hit that could go over the 25 damage?
Looks like it would be pretty awesome
Since you have 22 con early on, you could take EDR for your first 3 epic feats, but make sure to keep Epic Fortitude. I'd shave off the an EEDR Fire and Ice, to acomodate the EEDR.
Taking 3 EDR gives you 9/- DR. You have to ask yourself if 9/- balances out "10/- Fire, 10/- Ice, + extra Epic Feat".
Having a high Fort save is important.
Edited By Bromium on 10/03/06 15:03
Quote: Posted 10/03/06 14:19:47 (GMT) -- jets16
Would there be any way to fit it any of the EDR feats to help against a critical hit that could go over the 25 damage?
Looks like it would be pretty awesome
EDR is damage reduction and as such stacks only with damage resistance 25/- piercing from gargoyle or any other damage resistances from items (greater brawler's or swordsman belts for example) DwD and Barbarian DR apart; as such it doesn't help at all with damage over 25, but it helps with any damage from a +7 or higher enhancement weapon.
Damage Reduction 25/+7 and Damage Resistance piercing 20/- from Gargoyle stack with each other, so that you enjoy 45 DR vs piercing weapons of less than +7 enhancement.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Heavy metal Or no metal at all Whimps and posers Leave the hall!
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 12/09/06 03:13
come on Kail... you know you want to post a build here... all the cool kids are doing it...
*Shameless Bump*
I started this latest build chalenge trend and NOBODY has posted a build in this thread. Perhaps there are no skilled shifter builders out there...
Quote: Posted 11/03/06 19:20 (GMT) -- Bromium
*Shameless Bump*
I started this latest build chalenge trend and NOBODY has posted a build in this thread. Perhaps there are no skilled shifter builders out there...
I've played one type of shifter build in my life, the type that uses Rakshasa. I don't see the point of Gargoyle shape in any epic build - dragon is so much better for melee, be it offense or defense. _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
Bromium if you want to make a fun shifter..
Then go Vampire . Ive seen a couple around - seriously funny to watch - it was a sneaker vampire, ran around sneaking every1 and Doing that level drain ability it has! Had a realy nasty Stunning fist ability too.
Ive never made one - but i have made a dev critting Kobolt!
Anyone considered going the divine route? Maybe a paladin-heavy build with smiting might help. As far as I know divine might/shield work when shifted, and paladins get some kind of bonus to AB on a smite, class level or something.
Or going for sneak attacks, assuming they stack, you don't need insane AB for a sneaker... There's a world of possibilities out there!
Anyway haven't got the time to post one myself at the moment, but maybe it wouldn't work anyway! Good luck to anyone who tries one of these.
Kurth
Edited By K U R T H on 11/04/06 17:38
I KNOW that the Gargoyle is not a good damage dealer, nor is it the best defense selection. The point of this CHALLENGE was to see how each person approaches the situation. What is the quality of the lemon-aid you make with this big stinky Gargoyle Lemon?
So, the point is not to make a Vampire for fun, or to make a Dragon for the damage. It to see how YOU can tweak a build to make it a bit better. Even if you have not made many Shifter builds, you've probably made a ton of other great builds. Some of those tricks/tips can be applied to a Gargoyle build (not many, but some).
Be creative!
How about a druid 5/shifter 11/wizard 24 build? The idea is to cast extended damage shields (death, fire and acid) before shifting, and then go and take some beating. _________________ The curve is more powerful than the sword -- BG courtesan
Edited By Mick Dagger on 11/06/06 16:33
post it.
Im going to give this a go.........
But ive forgotten what Greater Wildshape is Gargoyle?? it 3?
Edit: Oh and also - Does Wep Focus Unarmed work with their claws?? please say it does!
Edited By smartie2003 on 11/06/06 19:50
Quote: Posted 11/06/06 19:31 (GMT) -- smartie2003
Im going to give this a go.........
But ive forgotten what Greater Wildshape is Gargoyle?? it 3?
Edit: Oh and also - Does Wep Focus Unarmed work with their claws?? please say it does!
Nope.
Well, I can say it, but not without lying.
Quote: Posted 11/06/06 19:31 (GMT) -- smartie2003
Im going to give this a go.........
But ive forgotten what Greater Wildshape is Gargoyle?? it 3?
You get "Epic Gargoyle" at Shifter level 11.
Ok here's the build i made. Because it was gargoyle i thought i would turn it into a char that made me laugh - thats what i prefer to play anyway! I took some things for granted so can be 100% sure this will work and i cant test because my PC is bust so i've made this on CBC on my mac!
Can someone tell me how i work out the save on my terry fort? ------------------------------------
Ok things i took as working - Weapon focus Unarmed working with claws - if not drop those feats and take Imp KD Pre epic. and another feat you want ( i would take great fort for those nasty devers). Then Epic take epic fort epic and another feat taking your fancy (i would take either Epic energy resist Cold or acid - Cold cause on some pvp servers they have nerfed RDDs so they are weakened against cold so there alot of cold weapons around, acid because of acid sheath)
Other thing i took for granted - Rage works while shifted - if not this build sucks (well takes the fun outa it) and i would go monk and get as much spell resistance possible and then piss off all the mages on your server!
-----------
How i would play it - hang around in your base begging people for buffs! Stoneskin, bulls str, cats grace, song etc etc.
change shape into Gargoyle!!!!! Then get angry (use rage ). Run around the arena scaring every1! Then go ikd them all and call for back up so that some1 can kill em cuz id be amazed if you hit them!
If your server is full pvp u may fear your team mates so may not be a great idea! After about a round of you fearing every1 i am fairly sure every1 will get a against align and then your fun is over i guess...
Comments welcome - i know it aint perfect cuz i rushed it cuz its just for fun!
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 11/07/06 01:36
Ok - because Weapon focus doesnt work...
Do what i said before! Drop Wep Focus for great fort if there a lots of devers around if not dont bother. Drop Imp Crit for Improved Knockdown - this means you have a slightly better chance against fear immune people.
Drop EWF for Epic Fort or for Epic energy Resist Acid or cold.
I think it would be fun to play - but it would suk pretty well untill level 40 (Would still suk then but not as much).
Some more advice for how to play - aim to fear mages first or else all of your hard work (fearing everyone!) will be dispelled
I may actually make this build! I got the idea from my Dwarf sneaker that uses a halberd and does basicly the same thing - apart from hes a rogue and has SD as well!
Improved Critical UA still caries over.
Since the fear effect is tied to the Intimidate skill, perhaps some feats to boost that would be good.
Epic Gargoyle overrides str and dex and sets them to a base 20. That will change your AB.
If you selected I-Disarm instead of IKD, then you'd probably last longer in a fight. If your IKD hits, then most likely your ID would have hit too, and since Gargoyle is considered unarmed, the weapon should pop into your inventory or at least hit the ground. Once you stand toe to toe with someone who lacks his trusty longsword... you can smack him around a lot better.
yea i guess. sorry been a long time since i played on an un-nerfed Disarm server so wouldnt have thought of that. Take ESF Intimitade then instead of some feat somewhere..... Just the idea really and also hoping this thread stops getting bumped up to the top by someone!
smartie2003, please check your language. I edited some swearing outta your post. That ain't nice. I'm sure you can communicate the same message with a different choice of words.
Also, it would be nice not to use chat speech (u, ur, cuz, etc...) at least to me.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Heavy metal Or no metal at all Whimps and posers Leave the hall!
Quote: Posted 11/07/06 01:40 (GMT) -- Kail Pendragon Also, it would be nice not to use chat speech (u, ur, cuz, etc...) at least to me.
Cheers, Kail
Yeah, these here are forums, not chat-pages. It makes it unreadable to many folks.
OK, here is a submission. It isn't the most playable build in the world, but here goes.
It gets a strength buff from both the Druid levels and the Blackguard. And as you won't get any weapon merges, I took the Divine Might (and Shield) feats for extra damage and AC.
I probably wouldn't go so far as to call it "Epic", but there's only so much you can do with a Gargoyle shape
Gargoyle of the Dark Fortress (Druid 8 / Shifter 11 / Blackguard 21)
I also created a version using Cleric that is probably better, but would require a lot of "buff, shift, fight, un-shift, buff, shift, fight, etc". I will post it in a bit.
Oh, and I haven't run this through a trainer, just on paper, so take it with a grain of salt.
Cheers.
Edited By dmuzzy on 11/07/06 20:39
Might be worth it to drop some great charisma for great smiting to make your smites stronger adn give you a source of AB and Damage.
@ Freedom: Ah, good idea. I hadn't considered that. I have actually never tried a Smiter. The only drawback would be that depending on environment, the Smite Good might not be of much use. In the proper setting, however, it could prove quite beneficial (I assume).
_____________________
Well, here is version 2. This uses Cleric instead of Blackguard. It is far more melee-friendly but it requires copious amounts of buffing-shifting-buffing-shifting, etc.
Also, it matures much more slowly. Again, not exactly "Epic".
I like the Blackguard version. I'd probably try to sneak in the "Extra Smiting" feat in there somewhere.
Boni to AC for shifted shapes are all Dodge, never natural. _________________ Heavy metal Or no metal at all Whimps and posers Leave the hall!
@ Bromium: Yeah, I like that version better too. Perhaps not as strong, but has better style. Plus, you end up with an Epic Vrock to run around with and torment villagers.
@ Kail: Ah, I didn't realize that. The shifter faq had it listed as "Natural", but he might have meant "natural from the shape" as opposed the the Type of AC. Thanks for the clarification.
Nobody is up for it?
Well, doesn't the gargoyle have 25/+7 damage reduction and 25/- piercing reduction? Or is that the part that is bugged? Might be able to work a druid/shifter/dwarven defender if not...
Doesn't seem bugged to me, I'm having lots of fun in it with my Epic Shifter.
*Shameless Bump*
Anyone considered going the divine route? Maybe a paladin-heavy build with smiting might help. As far as I know divine might/shield work when shifted, and paladins get some kind of bonus to AB on a smite, class level or something. 
so may not be a great idea! After about a round of you fearing every1 i am fairly sure every1 will get a against align and then your fun is over i guess...
smartie2003, please check your language. I edited some swearing outta your post. That ain't nice. I'm sure you can communicate the same message with a different choice of words.