Hey there. I was looking at the builds on the search index and could not find quite what I was looking for. I need a str based bard palemaster weaponmaster with as much AB as possible while still factoring in devcrit, epic mage armor and a character who uses a 2-handed weapon. I was hoping for either a halfling wielding a dwarven waraxe or a human wielding a scythe. I wanted to ask the creme of the building crop if such a thing were possible.
Quote: Posted 11/01/06 01:45 (GMT) -- Deltutammatre

Hey there. I was looking at the builds on the search index and could not find quite what I was looking for. I need a str based bard palemaster weaponmaster with as much AB as possible while still factoring in devcrit, epic mage armor and a character who uses a 2-handed weapon. I was hoping for either a halfling wielding a dwarven waraxe or a human wielding a scythe. I wanted to ask the creme of the building crop if such a thing were possible.

Dammit! I had a nice long response typed out and nuked it by mistake. Here's a synopsis:

you need 11 pre-epic feats to allow an exotic weapon, Dev Crit, and WM:

Dodge
Mobility
Expertise
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack
Weapon Focus
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improved Crtical
Exotic Weapons

Human's the most efficient, due to the extra feat, so let's assume Human.

EMA requires atleast 15 PM levels. Let's assume 16 for the bonus feat.

The best AB possible means no PM before epic levels, and taking WM as soon as possible. Ideally, this means Bard 12/WM 8 by level 20 for a BAB of +17. However, Exotic Weapons throws a wrench into this, which bumps your first available WM level to level 16 (due to needing 7 feats to qualify, which takes you until level 15 to get them all). So, you'll have to go with Bard 15/WM 5 by level 20, for a BAB of +16. Best you can do.

This leaves only 4 levels in epic. I suggest 2 more WM and 2 Bard. You can use the Bard levels for skill dumps.

Okay, epic levels needs Over Crit, Dev Crit, EMA, and you'll be wanting EWF and Epic Prowess to maximize AB. Assuming the Bard 17/PM 16/WM 7 template, that gives you 9 epic feats. 2 are PM bonus feats, of which one is a 'throwaway' Energy Resistance feat. 4 are EWF, Over Crit, Dev Crit, and Epic Prowess. 3 left, which you'll have to use for Cleave, GRT Cleave, and one left over (GRT STR?)

So, here's how you'd be forced to take your feats in pre-epic:

first 7 must be Dodge, Mobility, Exotic Weapons, Weapon Focus, Exopertise, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack (not necessarily in that order, but pretty close). That's to level 15. Then you need PA, CLeave, and GRT Cleave, but you've only 1 feat left, so it's PA.

Epic Levels:

Cleave, Great Cleave, GRT STR I, EWF, Epic Prowess, Over Crit, Dev Crit, Energy Resistance, EMA.

Here's the best I can do:


STR: 17 (28)
DEX: 13
CON: 12
INT: 13
WIS: 8
CHA: 11*

1 )Bard1: Dodge/ Mobility
2 )Bard2
3 )Bard3: Exotic Weapons
4 )Bard4: STR (18)
5 )Bard5
6 )Bard6: Weapon Focus:Scythe
7 )Bard7
8 )Bard8: STR (19)
9 )Bard9: Expertise
10)Bard10
11)Bard11
12)Bard12: Spring Attack/ STR (20)
13)Bard13
14)Bard14
15)Bard15: Whirlwind Attack
16)WM1: STR (21)
17)WM2
18)WM3: Power Attack
19)WM4
20)WM5: STR (22)

21)WM6: Cleave
22)WM7
23)PM1
24)PM2: Great Cleave/ STR (23)
25)PM3
26)PM4
27)Bard16: GRT STR I (24)
28)PM5: STR (25)
29)PM6
30)PM7: Epic Weapon Focus:Scythe
31)PM8
32)PM9: STR (26)
33)PM10: Over Crit
34)PM11
35)PM12
36)PM13: Dev Crit/ Epic Energy Resistance/ STR (27)
37)Bard17
38)PM14
39)PM15: Epic Prowess
40)PM16: Epic Mage Armor/ STR (28)

BAB: +26
AB with mundane scythe: +40

*You can't afford to have any more CHA than this, unless you want to raid CON or STR, but you must have at least 11, since the game will force that on you. That means no spells beyond level 1, which is highly lamentable. However, you can still pump Perform and get a decent Bard Song. You could start with 16 STR and 14 CHA, which will allow you to still get Dev Crit, but you'd have a leftover ability point. However, you could probably drop GRT STR I and take Armor Skin, ending with 26 STR. But, your AB would drop by 1 point to +39. As it stands, your AB isn't all that great anyway.

Well, this will give you a starting point. Perhaps someone else can tweak it to make it more suitable. Hope that helps.
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It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!! IMO, there is no point spending 6 feats (dodge, mobility, weapon focus, expertise, spring attack, whirlwind attack) to get Weapon Master levels if you are going to have less than 19 WM levels.

It is an easy mistake to think that just by having WM levels that you will have a high AB, and thus combining with Pale Mastery you will have an Uber, High AC, High AB, crit immune killing machine! There are other ways to 'skin the goat' so to speak and acomplish what you wish without making a 'gimped' build.

For instance; a 20 Paladin 4 Bard 16 Pale Master can easily meet the requirements for Dev. without being a total gimp of a build...if you wish for even Higher AC you could go with a 16 4 20 or 20 4 16 Cleric Bard Palemaster instead.

Examples of Good PM tanks can be found here:

Nike's 20 4 16 Pal PM

SomeElvenDude's 20 4 16 Pal PM

of Course Pal PMs require some alignment change, but meh ...both can be easily adapter to have Dev.

my OLD 20 4 16

I...Samphus's 20 4 16 Going Bard14/PM10/WM16 would possibly be better, and not necessarily cost a feat. the exotic weapon isn't really a downside, since otherwise he'd have to spend it on martial-weapon to get a decent one. Dev-Crit with scythe isn't the best choice either, as the crit-range is the lowest in NwN.

If he really, really wants EW, then Bard17/WM7/PM16 seems the best choice to me. But like Cinn says, low choice in spells, crappy dev-Crit DC (helped by bard song) and very little feats, not room for want-to-haves like KD, BF, curse-song, lingering song, heavy armor, more spells and still-spell. I'm prety sure this list could go on even a little longer.
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I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide.
I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.

I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience. For a feat starved WM who wants to use a two hander and only has "free" access to simple weapons, the spear really isn't a bad choice. Base damage becomes sort of irrelevant when enough magical and Strength bonuses are factored in, lowering average damage per hit by just a point or two. Also, you get the prestige of being the only one on your PW who wields a spear.

Considering the lack of feats, being a human with a spear seems an obvious choice.
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(I enjoy writing parenthetically (a lot)). That's a good point, Kool, and would open up a feat slot for something like Heavy Armor or Blind Fight (or whatever else you like),

Grimnir: the only reason I didn't suggest your level split is you'd be forced to take at least one PM level pre-epic, and thus lose BAB. (You'd be forced to go Bard 14/PM 1/WM 5, or something similar, and you wouldn't be able to get a full attack routine).
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It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 11/01/06 15:21 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din

That's a good point, Kool, and would open up a feat slot for something like Heavy Armor or Blind Fight (or whatever else you like),

Grimnir: the only reason I didn't suggest your level split is you'd be forced to take at least one PM level pre-epic, and thus lose BAB. (You'd be forced to go Bard 14/PM 1/WM 5, or something similar, and you wouldn't be able to get a full attack routine).

If you combine it with a simple weapon you would.
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Quote: Posted 11/01/06 22:56 (GMT) -- Grimnir77

Quote: Posted 11/01/06 15:21 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din

That's a good point, Kool, and would open up a feat slot for something like Heavy Armor or Blind Fight (or whatever else you like),

Grimnir: the only reason I didn't suggest your level split is you'd be forced to take at least one PM level pre-epic, and thus lose BAB. (You'd be forced to go Bard 14/PM 1/WM 5, or something similar, and you wouldn't be able to get a full attack routine).

If you combine it with a simple weapon you would.

Aye, but that's not what the OP requested.
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It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 11/01/06 05:44 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din

So, here's how you'd be forced to take your feats in pre-epic:

first 7 must be Dodge, Mobility, Exotic Weapons, Weapon Focus, Exopertise, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack (not necessarily in that order, but pretty close). That's to level 15. Then you need PA, CLeave, and GRT Cleave, but you've only 1 feat left, so it's PA.

Epic Levels:

Cleave, Great Cleave, GRT STR I, EWF, Epic Prowess, Over Crit, Dev Crit, Energy Resistance, EMA.


Something has to give here, Improved Critical is missing. I must say, that the OP has given the community a tall order. Is there a particular reason for absolutely needing weapon master? I don't think you can achieve anything with this build that you couldn't improve upon by going bard/ftr/pm. You certainly don't get the usual AB benefits associated with WM due to the AB loss pre-epic.
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Him? That can't be William Wallace. I'm prettier than this man.

Edited By Highlander44 on 11/03/06 18:33

The x4 crit on a scythe was further improved by the WM levels to x5 and the threat widened to what, 17-20 with keen? That combined with a unshielded high AC and crit immunity could make for a nasty tank. The possibility to go nearly as effective with a spear is tempting, but at the cost of major style points of toting around "the reaper". I already started building this, but with far less strength and a 14 in charisma; 2 things I will likely regret in the build's future. Thanks for working the tall order guys. It's always a pleasure using this forum as a sounding board.