Seems like itd be a nice combo. Say 26-27 Sorc, 3-4 Monk, 10 PM.

How effective would that be as a caster? Provided I got the Epic Spell focuses. What am I missing out on besides epic feats reducing the Sorc levels to 26-27 from say a 38 (like a 38/1/1 Sorc/Pally for example). Feats, as you say, which can be quite lacking in sorcerer builds to begin with, and spell-penetration. But unless you fight many monks, 26+ is usually sufficient, since the highest default SR in the toolset is 32. With 26 caster-levels you will penetrate with 75% of your spells roughly. Add in Spell Penetration feats if it becomes a problem. Your durations will also be shorter, and some damage spells will do less damage, mostly icestorm and Horrid Wilting, plus your damage shields. But remember that Palemaster brings in some nice tricks on it's own too, so it might be worth it. moreso in Wizards IMO, but still.
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Dragonlance ROH is back, better than before! and I spend a little time here WoG He becomes a sort of jack of all trades, but you gotta play him cautiously

I put this together to see how he would look; I think it works alright... I am sure there are tweaks to make it better, this is just a quick first draft

Sorcerer(24) Pale Master(10) Monk(6)

Human, any non-good
Stats: (final)
STR: 8
DEX: 14
CON: 8
WIS: 15 (16)
INT: 14
CHA: 16 (28)

Hitpoints: 222
Skillpoints: 233
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 22/29/21
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +9, Mind Effects: +2
BAB: 20
AB (max): 19 (melee), 22 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 30/30

As you can see, he gets quite a bit of monk goodness with the Wisdom of 16, it helps a lot at lower levels for staying alive. Since his HP are gonna be low, this is a nice help.

He gets quite a few skills as well, due to a comfortable intelligence. Of course, he makes full use of Spellcraft saving bonus and Tumble as well:

Concentration 43(42)
Discipline 42(41)
Heal 20(23)
Hide 23(25)
Move Silently 23(25)
Spellcraft 42(46)
Tumble 40(42)

Levelling Guide:
01: Monk(1): Courteous Magocracy, Luck of Heros, {Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist}
02: Monk(2): {Deflect Arrows}
03: Monk(3): Toughness
04: Sorcerer(1): WIS+1, (WIS=16)
05: Sorcerer(2)
06: Sorcerer(3): Extend Spell
07: Sorcerer(4)
08: Sorcerer(5): CHA+1, (CHA=17)
09: Sorcerer(6): Spell Focus: Necromancy
10: Pale Master(1)
11: Pale Master(2)
12: Pale Master(3): CHA+1, Spell Penetration, {Darkvision}, (CHA=18)
13: Pale Master(4)
14: Pale Master(5)
15: Pale Master(6): Greater Spell Penetration
16: Pale Master(7): CHA+1, (CHA=19)
17: Pale Master(8)
18: Pale Master(9): Maximize Spell
19: Pale Master(10)
20: Sorcerer(7): CHA+1, (CHA=20)
21: Monk(4): Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
22: Sorcerer(8)
23: Sorcerer(9)
24: Sorcerer(10): CHA+1, Epic Spell Penetration, (CHA=21)
25: Sorcerer(11)
26: Sorcerer(12)
27: Sorcerer(13): Great Charisma I, (CHA=22)
28: Sorcerer(14): CHA+1, (CHA=23)
29: Sorcerer(15)
30: Sorcerer(16): Great Charisma II, (CHA=24)
31: Sorcerer(17)
32: Monk(5): CHA+1, (CHA=25)
33: Sorcerer(18): Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy
34: Sorcerer(19)
35: Sorcerer(20)
36: Sorcerer(21): CHA+1, Epic Spell: Epic Mage Armor, (CHA=26)
37: Sorcerer(22)
38: Sorcerer(23): Epic Spell: Epic Warding
39: Sorcerer(24): Great Charisma III, (CHA=27)
40: Monk(6): CHA+1, {Knockdown, Improved Knockdown}, (CHA=28)

With the penetration feats, he ends up with a SP of 31; so you will punch through most any SR out there (besides high Monks) most of the time. And focused in necromancy, your attacks from that school get a nice respectable DC as well. Keys for this guy would be both Wis/Dex and CHA boosting items, as the wisdom would also boost your Stun DC (final is 33 as is) and your AC. though at a naked AC of 30, he isn't doing too badly Especially once you add in the +20 from EMa, and all your other nifty Buffing goodness


Skills Progression:
01: Concentration(4), Discipline(4), Heal(4), Hide(4), Move Silently(4), Tumble(4), Save(4),
02: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Heal(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1), Save(5),
03: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Heal(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1), Save(6),
04: Concentration(1), Heal(1), Spellcraft(7), Save(2),
05: Concentration(1), Heal(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(4),
06: Concentration(1), Heal(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(6),
07: Concentration(1), Heal(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(8),
08: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(11),
09: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(14),
10: Concentration(1), Hide(7), Move Silently(7), Spellcraft(1), Save(3),
11: Concentration(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(4),
12: Concentration(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(5),
13: Concentration(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(6),
14: Concentration(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(7),
15: Concentration(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(8),
16: Concentration(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(9),
17: Concentration(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(10),
18: Concentration(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(11),
19: Concentration(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(12),
20: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(15),
21: Concentration(1), Discipline(5), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(14),
22: Concentration(1), Heal(2), Spellcraft(2),
23: Concentration(1), Heal(2), Spellcraft(1), Save(1),
24: Concentration(1), Heal(2), Spellcraft(1), Save(2),
25: Concentration(1), Heal(2), Spellcraft(1), Save(3),
26: Concentration(1), Heal(2), Spellcraft(1), Save(4),
27: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(7),
28: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(10),
29: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(13),
30: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(16),
31: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(19),
32: Concentration(1), Discipline(15), Tumble(10),
33: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(2), Save(2),
34: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(5),
35: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(8),
36: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(11),
37: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(14),
38: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(17),
39: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(20),
40: Concentration(1), Discipline(16), Tumble(10),
_________________
-4SakN

The Moonshae Isles - Forgotten Realms
A Role Play, Low Magic world

Edited By 4SakN on 11/14/06 15:18

My thoughts were similar in a few test builds I roughed out.

Sorcerer(25) Pale Master(10) Monk(5), or 26/10/4 for one last epic sorc feat. I dont plan to melee so not really worried about KD/IKD that come with Monk 6. Hence reducing to Monk 5 (purity of body) or Monk 4 (26 Sorc opening up another epic feat, and hopefully increasing my DC).

Human, any non-good
Stats: (final)
STR: 8
DEX: 12
CON: 12
WIS: 14
INT: 12
CHA:18

Concentration 43(42)
Discipline 42(41)
Spellcraft 42(46)
Tumble 40(42)

Why? Courteous Magocracy, Luck of Heros... This could open up a few feats. In my case Id like to add another school to necromancy. Personal preference in my case abjuration, or conjuration (Im a huge fan of gasses acid fog, stink cloud, plus web, grease, evards, my favorite spells in the game) schools big time.

I was thinking all stat bonuses into CHA. I want DC as high as possible. I usually go so far as to buff it with Charisma spell (maximized/or emp), and obviously items. This gives me 30 CHA with only Great Cha II. I havent built it out in a builder yet, but hopefully a 26/4/10 build this frees up another feat (where you took great cha 3).

If Im right, my tweaks using a 26/4/10 build opens up 3 feats, taking another school to Epic (conjuration, necro). I was even thinking of dropping spell penetration... That way Id get epic necro, conjur, and abjuration. Use Mords to reduce SR when its a problem.

Anyways thanks for the spin on the build, looks like you created an original build there. As I was unable to find any Sorc, monk, PM builds in Pulse caps search engine. Grats.
Quote: Posted 11/14/06 15:58 (GMT) -- he-hate-me

Why? Courteous Magocracy, Luck of Heros... This could open up a few feats. In my case Id like to add another school to necromancy. Personal preference in my case abjuration, or conjuration (Im a huge fan of gasses acid fog, stink cloud, plus web, grease, evards, my favorite spells in the game) schools big time.

I was thinking all stat bonuses into CHA. I want DC as high as possible. I usually go so far as to buff it with Charisma spell (maximized/or emp), and obviously items. This gives me 30 CHA with only Great Cha II. I havent built it out in a builder yet, but hopefully a 26/4/10 build this frees up another feat (where you took great cha 3).

Those are all usable options of course ; I was actually building it for general usage as the specifics of what you liked/were looking for were minimal in the original post. I figured a good general build utilizing key features of each class would be a good base to work from, then you could tweak as you wanted

With that in mind; CM and Luck of Heroes were of course open space, but I used them to boost your saves (+to Spellcraft from CM, and + to all from Luck) to increase playability, especially at lower levels. With the +2 boost to Spellcraft, you only need to raise your INT 2 to gain another + to your Spell saves that way.

Same with the single point in Wis, to boost your saves as well as your AC and Stun until you get up a couple levels in PM and it doesn't matter as much. At the first few levels, your stun DC and your AC will be vital, so that was my thinking with those areas.

Again, the extra levels in Monk were for the all around playability. All you started from was a general Idea; I was just trying to make it as overall playable as possible. your tweaks would absolutely increase casting (though I would keep the SP feats and just take two schools, just my preference though), and your DC would go up quite a bit

Glad you found what you are hoping for, good luck with it!
_________________
-4SakN
"never kiss a girl whose brothers have knife scars."
"never gamble without knowing a back way out."
-Robert Jordan Absolutely. Just wanted to throw out my thoughts and see if anyone shot em down. Make sure I wasnt overlooking anything. Ive never really understood how Spell Penetration and works, so probably dont give it enough due.

Again nice build, and thanks for helping me flesh out an idea.

Edited By he-hate-me on 11/14/06 16:24

Spell penetration goes against a target's Spell resistance; Your Spell's DC is for a targets Saving throws.

Basically, SR hits first; so if you can't penetrate the target's SR, your spell will not effect them (even if it is a no save spell). That's why I suggested keeping the SP feats anyway, your Spell penetration will end up (If I figured it right, I could be off a little) at 32 +1d20 without them, or 38+1d20 with them. At 38, even pure class monks will be hit close to 50% of the time from your spells. A multiclass monk will almost always be hit.

Once you pass a creature's SR, then your spell's DC comes into effect
_________________
-4SakN
"never kiss a girl whose brothers have knife scars."
"never gamble without knowing a back way out."
-Robert Jordan
Quote: Posted 11/14/06 16:43 (GMT) -- 4SakN

Spell penetration goes against a target's Spell resistance; Your Spell's DC is for a targets Saving throws.

Basically, SR hits first; so if you can't penetrate the target's SR, your spell will not effect them (even if it is a no save spell).

Once you pass a creature's SR, then your spell's DC comes into effect

This part I understand but how do you calculate. Ie how do you calcuate level by level SR... And how often would 32 or 36 hit? (Spell Pen and Greater SP, +2 or +4 right?). How do you know Monks 38? I expect I wont see too many near pure monks.

Edited By he-hate-me on 11/14/06 17:11

I see, ok let me see if I get these all right


Spell resistance:

By the Spell = Caster level + 12

For Monks (After level 12) = Monk Level + 10

the feat that gives this to them is Diamond soul; and the level is only Monk level, not Character level for the calculation.

monks can also take the Improved Spell Resistance feat, giving them +2 to SR each time they take it (Max 10)


For Spell Penetration:

Spell Penetration is calculated at Caster level + 1d20 for each spell cast, with the following modifiers

+2 Spell Penetration (feat)
+4 Greater Spell Penetration
+6 Epic Spell Penetration

these don't stack, IE it is a TOTAL +6 for epic Spell Penetration (+2 for each one)

and you caster level goes up only on Sorc levels, not on PM levels.

Hope that helped

EDIT TO MY PREVIOUS POST:

I added them in twice, sorry...

your SP for what you were talking about (26/4/10) would be 26 without any Penetration feats, or 32 with... sorry
_________________
-4SakN

The Moonshae Isles - Forgotten Realms
A Role Play, Low Magic world

Edited By 4SakN on 11/14/06 17:27

Thats awesome, perfect. Got it.