I posted this in the Pre-Epic Guild, but the activity there is starting to slow, maybe even die. So I figured I would also post here and see if someone could help me iron out a few wrinkles in the build. It is built around an RP concept more so than the thirst to whip everyone else, but of course I want it to be tough. Tell me what you think and how to improve it, please.
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Paladin 15/Bard 11/CoT 4 -- Human, Aasimar Perhaps (Lawful Good to Neutral Good)
Strength: 14(21) Dexterity: 8 Constitution: 14 Wisdom: 14 (+2, if Aasimar) Intelligence: 14 Charisma: 14 (+2, if Aasimar)
Discipline, Taunt, and UMD are maxed. Tumble at 30, and Perform at 18. Spellcraft was also maxed for saves, and the ability to counterspell with scrolls, though I considered putting it into Concentration to avoid Taunts and be able to cast Darkness in battle
Attack Bonus: 36/31/26/21 Damage: 1d6 + 10, (15-20x2) Armour Class: 34 Hit Points: 346 (Maxed, I think)
Fortitude: 23 Reflex: 19 (+7 against spells, due to Spellcraft) Will: 20
--Buffed, Same Equipment:--
Attack Bonus: 47/42/37/32/47 Damage: 2d6 + 20, Dispel and Deafen OnHit, (12-20x2) Armour Class: 45 Hit Points: 361
Fortitude: 25 Reflex: 23 (+7 against spells, due to Spellcraft) Will: 22
Spell Resistance: 16
--Quick Buff, Battle-Ready:--
Attack Bonus: 42/37/32/27 Armour Class: 40 Hit Points: 361
(This consists of the important buffs, and the ones that would have been cast upon waking up. Bulls Strength, Cats Grace, Holy Sword, and Bard Song are included)
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(The statistics shown above can vary depending on spells selected. I did not prepare Eagles Splendor or Aura of Glory which could net a +8 to Saves, though I would do so if expecting to fight a caster. My Saving Throws would be quite formidable with such an addition! There are also other selections that can be made, though the form chosen above displays the best possible Attack Schedual for the build).
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Tactics and Strategies:
Darkness and Ultravision: Most of you know this, as its simple though effective. Ultravision is one of those Hour Per Level spells, and thus if you throw it up after resting, you can toss Darkness around whenever you feel the need, and if fleeing suits you rather than fighting, you can cast an Improved Invisibility and just waltz away from there, or perhaps Expedius Retreat. If this does not suit you, then swing away at your now flat-footed opponent, who's AC should be lower.
Ambush: With Expedius Retreat, Haste, and Improved Invisibility at your disposal you can catch your enemy by surprise if they are not expecting you. This would be a good opportunity to open the fight, fully-buffed, with an Improved Disarm or Improved Knockdown; for at this point, you have your best shot at success.
Cripple The Bastards: With Curse Song, Taunt, Improved Disarm, War Cry, and Darkness... you have plenty of options to gain the upper-hand in the fight. Even if you are the one caught by surprise, you can lower their AC by more than 10 points if you use a few of those abilities in combination. With such a dramatically lowered Armour Class, Disarm and Knockdown are the way to go.
Fighting Mages: With UMD, you could get your hands on, and use some pretty nifty scrolls. With this you can open up the possibility of Counterspelling a mage, which is a good way to drain his resources while you are still ready to smash his skull in when he's done. However, it is always better to avoid doing so, because it is costly to burn so many scrolls. It is far better to get the jump on him, cast a single Mordakeins Disjunction scroll, and then run in and hack away with a Holy Sword spell which will take down whatever is left of his defences. And if you anticipate such a fight, then I would sacrifice two other spells in order to cast Eagles Splendor and the Aura which will increase your saves greatly incase he manages to fire a few your way. However, that should be hard for him when you have Taunt at your disposal, giving him a 30% chance of Spell Failure if he fails the Concentration check. Though if that doesn't work, few mages have the Discipline to withstand a Knockdown after you use a Cursesong. On the ground, a mage is toast.
Fighting Melee: Though not as tough as a typical fighter-type, you can hold your own even without too many spells. With Discipline you should be able to resist a few Knockdowns, though probabilty is that you'll fall off your feet eventually, and thus I would recomend having Bard Song and Curse Song on your priority list to use, for it greatly incrases your chances of staying with your *** off the dirt. From there, it shouldn't be hard so long as you are resourceful with whats been given to you.
Fighting Sneakers: Difficult. If they get the jump on you, your AC isn't high enough to just laugh in their face. A few good Sneak hits and your low Hit Point score will drop, and Crippling Strike will make you pitiful. I don't know about you, but I would cast Darkness and run away, cast Improved Invisibility and hope he crawls out of the Darkness. Then, Knock him down.
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This build is not what I hoped it would be. I wanted a higher AB, but I suppose I'll live with what I have. Well, the AB can reach 52, but I don't count Divine Favour because its gone in such short time. The AC is rather low but with some potions and/or items, it can become respectable I suppose. The Hit Points though... I don't like them. Bards get such a stupid Hit Die! D6!? C'mon!
Well, anyways I'm really hoping for some critics to come along. I want this build as good as it can be. I'm willing to change almost anything to make it better. As long as Paladin and Bard are the two main classes... anything else can be tossed, changed, or added.
Cool concept. How will it be roleplayed? A preacher? Must have the evangelist voiceset!
I like paladin bard combos, they seem to fit together nicely (except the XP penalty). However, i think you're right, and this doesn't fit its maximum potential.
Personally, I like to take either 20 bard levels for LI or only a few for RDD/PM prerequisite. Speaking of which, RDD could add a lot to the build AB- and stat-wise. It's tempting, but maybe the RP concept would have to be modified slightly.
A bard 20-26, paladin 4-10, RDD 10 is a choice I always like, allows you to focus on charisma for bard spells, and Divine Might/Shield (available from paladin levels), without your AB being too feeble (bard song/strength boni from RDD). Or alternately the same route could be taken focusing all out on strength, going for maximum AB and damage with a greatsword.
The great advantage to having the RDD in there is the +2 to charisma and intelligence, allowing you to get bard spells and IKD without putting loads of points into the required stats. I'm assuming when you say you want bard in the build, you want a decent number of levels in it, so I suppose that puts the classic paladin 23/bard 2/ RDD 15 out of the question.
Either way, whether you choose this route or not, hope it goes well!
Kurth
Well, Kurth, you failed to notice that it's a lvl 30 build. Paladin16/Bard4/RDD10 could be a way if he wants RDD. Seems he wants a Pally-focused build too. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Server requires 12 levels of Bard before pursuing RDD. So perhaps with this information you understand why I was less eager to take the class.
15 Paladin/12 Bard would leave only 3 RDD levels, which would get +2 Strength and a d8 Hit Die I think. Not much benifit compaired to the CoT's bonus to Saves, and plenty extra Feats which were much needed.
But Grim, I was kinda hoping you could toss some advice my way? Or is there not enough flexibility to make much improvement...
Huh, you posted the build exactly as it is in the other guild... I thought you made a level 40 version...
Spellcraft gives bonus to all saves vs spells, not just reflex.
I would think taking the first Bard level in a lower level will adjust better for skilldumping/playability, I know your server requires at least 3 levels in a row, but you can easily take Bard at levels 7, 8, 9 and 12, no BAB loss whatsoever.
I think you could use better the extra feat from CoT for firepower (yeah, that term can apply), because you leave your STR at an odd score, you can easily move all CoT levels to epic and take Armor Skin or Epic Prowess as bonus and take Great STR I, no BAB loss either, you lose Improved Disarm though.
I suppose you'll now say that the stat enhancements in your server will leave it at an odd score anyway since it's low magic, but I have an idea anyway. Forget about Disarm and Improved Disarm, your buffed AB of +47 is actually quite good, but won't be really effective against a Discipline check on any STR based melee, which makes a roll of your AB with a penalty of -4 IIRC, against a DC of 1d20 + Discipline check, which will be at least 33, and about 40 on a STR based build, which leaves you with very low possibility, you just don't have an edge there, your size won't allow you to rip his weapon off, only to drop it, easily re-equipable. So, drop those two feats. Now, Take Lingering Song on Pre-epic, if you take the Bard levels in Pre-epic as I suggested you'll get a chance on levels 9 and 12, that way you can take Great STR II instead, I'll bet for more AB and damage than Disarm on almost any non dragon or non WM build.
With only 4 levels, I'd easily change CoT for Fighter, anytime, if you don't use CoT to empower the build with STR, BAB or a large amount of feats, and take only a low amount of saves (as you're not even getting Divine Wrath) I think Bard would prove better instead of CoT.
Man I wonder why my builds never get replies and you got some easily... I'm still angry at how nobody replied in my latest build (*mean look at the mods) maybe it's just too good
Nice build Okembour... eh, I won't re-post suggestions on the other guild btw...
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 12/12/06 02:23
Have to go with Thax here. Paladin16/Bard14 does actually seem very appealing. But going Paladin15/Fighter4/Bard11 (which Thax also says!) for EWS might be good too.
As for replies, only a few of my builds has ever gotten feedback worth mentioning too, Thax, so you're not exactly alone.
Oh, and it's spelled Vang-U-Ard. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Quote: As for replies, only a few of my builds has ever gotten feedback worth mentioning too, Thax, so you're not exactly alone.
Good to know it's not just me... I think...
Quote: Oh, and it's spelled Vang-U-Ard.
Well, you're a mod Grim, use your magical powers.
Well you guys are great with builds, and you understand the numbers and additions that I don't. I didn't want to take any pre-epic Bard because I feared BAB loss, since I don't completely understand the logistics of it all. You guys however, make far less flaws than I because of your understanding. So it is often hard to say anything other than "Congradulations" to you guys.
As for the advice, I will most definetly take it. I took Disarm because I didn't know what else to do with the pre-epic feats from CoT, which I only took in the pre-epic levels because I thought I would lose BAB if I had taken Bard instead. However, I'm not sure I would take Fighter over CoT just for EWS, since I kind of like the added insurance of slightly higher Saving Throws rather than damage. And now that I think of it, the Disarm line isn't useless with Curse Song available. But even with that, the extra Strength still sounds more appealing.
I think I will take the CoT on Epic Levels only then, get the extra stats, and take some Bard earlier for skilldumping. Thanks guys, thats really helpful.
What about skills though? What would you take? I think I maxed Discipline, UMD, Tumble to 30, Perform to 18, and put the remainder which was about 8, into Lore or something... though I might be forgetting one other skill I was able to max.
And again, thanks for the advice Thax... that small addition to AB will be useful. And then, when in dire need, I can throw up Divine Favour for an extra +5 for a short duration. I could hit like, 56-58 with server items.
Edited By Okembour on 12/14/06 21:21
Skills are fine IMO, but spellcraft adds saves vs spells on all saves, not just reflex. If you want a tutorial for skills, Grimnir is the skill master, but I think you're fine there.
Quote: As for the advice, I will most definetly take it. I took Disarm because I didn't know what else to do with the pre-epic feats from CoT, which I only took in the pre-epic levels because I thought I would lose BAB if I had taken Bard instead. However, I'm not sure I would take Fighter over CoT just for EWS, since I kind of like the added insurance of slightly higher Saving Throws rather than damage. And now that I think of it, the Disarm line isn't useless with Curse Song available. But even with that, the extra Strength still sounds more appealing.
The thing is you did take Bard levels pre-epic, on level 19 and 20, so your BAB decreased anyway, with 11 Bard levels, there's no way out of it. The added saving throws are always nice, but they're too slight to my taste, with no Divine Wrath, so I find them useless. Disarm is a good feat, but it's hard to manage, you'll need a size advantage or a really high AB to make it work IMO.
