Here's a challenge - Epic Character Builder's Guild

I'm looking for a human melee strength-based fighter, any allignment. What makes this a challenge is the world: very high magic. Absurdly high magic.

Here's what I mean: Saves don't mean squat, because there is protection from almost everything. You can figure on being hasted, and, yeah, there is dev crit, but the bosses are all crit immune, so it doesn't matter. Things like barbarian rage are useless because they don't last long enough to be worthwhile against the bosses, who take oogots * 10 hits.

You can figure you'll have a +20 weapon, +12 on all ac catagories, and things like weapon spec are meaningless because another 4 hit points isn't worth paying attention to. And, yeah, you'll have damage reduction; so will everything you fight.

The usual solution is to go dex-based, and let the obscene amount of damage on the uber weapons deal with it. But I want to figure out if a strength-based character can work.

Why am I even bothering? The RP is good and my girl friend likes it there.

Two things matter: AB and AC. So...with that in mind, any suggestions? And, yeah, in this case he needs to be human. I've been checking Fighter/PM builds, but none of them that I've seen have good enough AB.

Edited By skzb on 03/12/07 23:27

Fighter 10/Bard 20/RDD 10. Take 4 fighter levels pre-epic. Max Taunt. Start Str at 16, put all points to Str, end at 40.

AB: 26 base, + 4 (WF/EWF & EP) + 21 (buffed Str) + 2 (Bard Song) + 5 (Curse Song -5 to enemy AC) + 6 (Taunt) = 64. Then add +20 from your uber-weapon = 84. I am not sure if the +2 to AB from Bard Song counts against the +20 cap or not, the rest definitely does not.

AC: 10 (base) + 2 (Armor Skin) + 4 (Draconic Armor) + 8 (Tumble) +1 (dex in heavy armor) + 8 (heavy armor) + 3 (tower shield) = 36. Add 5 * 12 for magic items and it brings you to 96.

Recommended build:
Bard(20), Fighter(10), Red Dragon Disciple(10), Human

STR: 16 (40)
DEX: 10
CON: 14 (16)
WIS: 8
INT: 14 (16)
CHA: 14 (16)

Hitpoints: 464
Skillpoints: 280
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 25/22/19
BAB: 26
AB (max, naked): 45 (melee), 27 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 25/36
Spell Casting: Bard(6)

Discipline 43(58), Lore 8(31), Perform 42(45), Spellcraft 42(45), Taunt 42(45), Tumble 40(40), UMD 42(45), 21 left over

01: Bard(1): Curse Song, Blind Fight
02: Fighter(1): Weapon Focus
03: Fighter(2): Power Attack, Cleave
04: Fighter(3): STR+1, (STR=17)
05: Bard(2)
06: Red Dragon Disciple(1): Knockdown
07: Red Dragon Disciple(2): (STR=19)
08: Red Dragon Disciple(3): STR+1, (STR=20)
09: Red Dragon Disciple(4): Toughness, (STR=22)
10: Red Dragon Disciple(5)
11: Red Dragon Disciple(6)
12: Red Dragon Disciple(7): STR+1, Disarm*, (STR=23), (CON=16)
13: Red Dragon Disciple(8)
14: Bard(3)
15: Bard(4): Empower Spell*
16: Bard(5): STR+1, (STR=24)
17: Bard(6)
18: Bard(7): Improved Knockdown
19: Fighter(4): Improved Disarm*
20: Bard(8): STR+1, (STR=25)
21: Red Dragon Disciple(9): Great Strength I, (STR=26), (INT=16)
22: Red Dragon Disciple(10): RDD: (Darkvision), (STR=30), (CHA=16)
23: Fighter(5)
24: Fighter(6): STR+1, Great Strength II, Epic Weapon Focus, (STR=32)
25: Fighter(7)
26: Fighter(8): Epic Prowess
27: Bard(9): Great Strength III, (STR=33)
28: Bard(10): STR+1, (STR=34)
29: Bard(11)
30: Bard(12): Great Strength IV, (STR=35)
31: Bard(13)
32: Bard(14): STR+1, (STR=36)
33: Bard(15): Great Strength V, (STR=37)
34: Bard(16)
35: Bard(17)
36: Bard(18): STR+1, Great Strength VI, (STR=39)
37: Bard(19)
38: Fighter(9)
39: Bard(20): Lasting Inspiration
40: Fighter(10): STR+1, Armor Skin, (STR=40)

The feats with a * by them are optional - you could go with Expertise/Imp Expertise instead for +10 to AC at the cost of 10 AB, or Improved PA for more damage, or SF: Taunt for +3 to Taunt, Still Spell, Extend, etc.

Note that with Song/Curse Song active, he gets +9 to skills, and enemies get -9 to skills, so his effective Taunt becomes 63 vs. enemy concentration. His KD/Disarm is also more effective thanks to song.

Thanks to Lasting Inspiration, he can sing after rest and only have to use Curse Song at the start of a battle. Both will last through a long battle easily (100 rounds). He can cast all the Bard spells, can use any scroll, wand, item, etc.

I didn't pick a weapon, you can go for a single-handed weapon to use a shield for AC, or a 2-handed to get the 1.5X damage bonus (from +21 to +31) and the large weapon bonus for Disarm.

I skipped Imp Crit, WS/EWS, and Overwhelming/Dev Crit since you said they don't matter for this server. You said not to worry about saves, but you could easily swap out Fighter for CoT to get +5 to all saves, better base saves, plus the CoT Divine Wrath, a weak Smite, etc. Only costs you 1 pre-epic feat, which you have to spare. You will need to move the CoT levels back a bit (after you reach BAB 7), but you can still easily fit in 4 pre-epic. The Smite may actually be worthwhile for the AB bonus - your base Cha of 16 gives +3, buffed will give +9, pushing your max AB up to 93 (granted, only 3 swings per day, and only against evil). Take Extra Smiting if you go this route.

TM

P.S. Is the KZ for Karl Zoltan?

Edited By Tattoed Monk on 03/13/07 00:50

My only question is if you are losing too much AB by taking so many bard levels pre-epic. Not to mention, are you losing an attack? Number of attacks can be pretty crucial.

Yes, KZ is for Karl Zoltan. Nice to meet you.

Thanks for the reply.
_________________
"The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between the lightning and the lightning bug." -- Twain He gets 4 attacks - 16 BAB. You can take more fighter pre-epic, and lower Bard to 16, but you lose Lasting Inspiration. Bard song AB and AC bonuses are the same, but fewer skill points. Take Lingering Song pre-epic to make the song last 15 rounds (not as good as 100, but better than 10). Oh, I forgot to include the song bonuses in the AC - effectively +7 to AC.

Nice to meet you too. One of my builds is called Vlad Taltos. Click Here

It's limited by the NWN rules. It really needs a 4th class to make it a proper homage, but I gave it a shot. If you scroll down through it there's a brief discussion of a build for Sethra...

Oh, I'm old enough to remember my first good computer game was text-based, and included two mazes of twisty little passages.....

TM

Edited By Tattoed Monk on 03/13/07 02:11

Quote: Why am I even bothering? The RP is good and my girl friend likes it there

I'd ask why do you bother on going melee, +12 on all AC types at least is better than +20 on all AC types, but it's still enough to get AC values beyond AB values if DEX based, becoming untouchable in melee, you should go with a caster.

But anyway, that would be the easiest answer, I'll give you credit for being brave, wanting a STR based melee, but who knows if it will be a good idea.

I consider two main possibilities for a STR based, huge AB and huge damage, you could go Fighter 8 / Weapon Master 28 / Bard 4 for a high AB score, but seriously, it might not be worth it.

Tatooed Monk's build up here has a powerful STR score, deals a lot of damage, and still has a high AC, but maybe you could deal more damage (at the cost of some AC) with a Ranger 21 / Sorcerer 9 / Red Dragon Disciple 10, that will give just as high a STR score, great for two handed weapons, Bane of Enemies adds 2d6+5 damage and Flame Weapon adds 1d4+9 damage, I don't know if that's such a big boost out there, but supposing you only hit on high rolls, or even only 20 against the possible ACs out there, a blast of damage per hit could be useful. I'm flattered! I tried it myself in the solo game as rogue/sorc/sd, but I couldn't make it work because, for one thing, I'm a terrible builder. The bit on Sethra cracked me up.

Quote: Posted 03/13/07 03:31 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia

... but maybe you could deal more damage (at the cost of some AC) with a Ranger 21 / Sorcerer 9 / Red Dragon Disciple 10, that will give just as high a STR score, great for two handed weapons, Bane of Enemies adds 2d6+5 damage and Flame Weapon adds 1d4+9 damage...

In an extreme high magic world, I'd be surprised if no one have made items that let you cast lvl 10 Flame Weapon and lvl 20 Darkfire.

In that case I'd build a Ranger 29/Bard 1/RDD 10 for more FE's, 3 epic bonus feats and a bard lvl for the skilldump.
If you plan on playing all the lvls, I'd go Ranger 26/Bard 4/RDD 10 for a more gradual skill development.
_________________
The curve is more powerful than the sword
-- BG courtesan The reason I favor Bard/RDD over WM or fighter levels is simple - you end up with higher AB.

WM: Gets at most +7 AB from ESWF (at level 28), and 2 or 3 higher BAB for a total of +10.

Fighter: Gets at most 3-4 higher BAB.

Bard Song: +2 to hit, +5 AC
Curse Song: -2 to enemy AB, -5 to enemy AC
Taunt: -6 to enemy AC
RDD gets you +8 to str, +4 to AB

Net is +13 to AC and +17 to AB, signficantly higher than even the level 28 WM build.

TM It is a high magic server sp song does not affect AB.
_________________
Valkos clueless A DEX based WM build with good criticals and Epic Dodge is probably one of the best choices. Another build I'd name for high magic is Bard/Rogue/RDD with both Dev Crit and ED.
_________________
"With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom."
Star Wreck

Quote: Posted 03/13/07 15:28 (GMT) -- Kalmar_Oxin

It is a high magic server sp song does not affect AB.

Only the +2 to AB from Song is lost if you already have +20. The -5 to enemy AC from curse song still effectively gives you +5, as does the -6 from Taunt, and the +4 from Str. That's still 15 of the 17.

TM Over your 16 BAB fighter/Bard/RDD, a Fighter10/WM28/Bard 2 can also get +17. +4 BAB(20), +7 Superior WF, and +6 taunt. I still favor the Bard/RDD build - more spells, immunities, RDD AC boost, more skillpoints, song AC bonus, song skill bonus, curse song skill penalties for enemies, etc. It's more than just the AB. Plus, if the challenge is to go str-based, then let's go all the way. You can't get much more str-based than a Ftr/Bard/RDD.

But if you want to post a str-based WM build, by all means put it up. They are certainly good builds, although a bit focused on crits, which he already said weren't useful due to immunities. If Dev Crit was useful, then a WM Scim or Kukri build would be ideal.

TM

Quote: Posted 03/13/07 13:17 (GMT) -- Mick Dagger

Quote: Posted 03/13/07 03:31 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia

... but maybe you could deal more damage (at the cost of some AC) with a Ranger 21 / Sorcerer 9 / Red Dragon Disciple 10, that will give just as high a STR score, great for two handed weapons, Bane of Enemies adds 2d6+5 damage and Flame Weapon adds 1d4+9 damage...
In an extreme high magic world, I'd be surprised if no one have made items that let you cast lvl 10 Flame Weapon and lvl 20 Darkfire.

In that case I'd build a Ranger 29/Bard 1/RDD 10 for more FE's, 3 epic bonus feats and a bard lvl for the skilldump.
If you plan on playing all the lvls, I'd go Ranger 26/Bard 4/RDD 10 for a more gradual skill development.

Huh, guess I didn't thought about that, I never play in so high magic environments, if that's so I agree more Ranger will be better then... well, I'll build you up an example, and check how it works, though it's most definitely less playable than Tatooed Monk's Bard 20 / Fighter 10 / Red Dragon Disciple 10, but I believe it's still correctly playable 1-40:

Though in the regarding matter, you can get an equal STR score with several combinations, not just Fighter.

Ranger 26 / Bard 4 / Red Dragon Disciple 10

-This is an untested build-

Human

STR: 18 (42)
DEX: 8
CON: 14 (16)
INT: 12 (14)
WIS: 8
CHA: 12 (14)

I'm only pointing RDD STR boosts, since it's the important part here.

1 Ranger1 - Blind-Fight, Weapon Focus, Favored Enemy I
2 Bard1
3 Ranger2 - Power Attack
4 Ranger3 - STR +1 (19)
5 Ranger4
6 Ranger5 - Knockdown, Favored Enemy II
7 Ranger6
8 Ranger7 - STR +1 (20)
9 Ranger8 - Improved Knockdown
10 Ranger9
11 Ranger10 - Favored Enemy III
12 Bard2 - STR +1 (21), Improved Critical
13 Ranger11
14 Ranger12
15 Ranger13 - Disarm
16 Ranger14 - STR +1 (22)
17 Ranger15 - Favored Enemy IV
18 Ranger16 - Improved Disarm
19 Ranger17
20 Ranger18 - STR +1 (23)
21 Ranger19 - Great Strength I (24)
22 Ranger20 - Favored Enemy V**
23 Ranger21
24 Ranger22 - STR +1 (25), Great Strength II (26)
25 Ranger23 - Bane of Enemies
26 Red Dragon Disciple1
27 Bard3 - Great STR III (27),
28 Red Dragon Disciple2 - STR +1 (29), [+2 STR (30)]
29 Red Dragon Disciple3 -
30 Red Dragon Disciple4 - Great Strength IV (31), [+2 STR (33)]
31 Red Dragon Disciple5
32 Red Dragon Disciple6 - STR +1 (34)
33 Red Dragon Disciple7 - Great Strength V (35)
34 Red Dragon Disciple8
35 Red Dragon Disciple9
36 Red Dragon Disciple10 - STR +1 (36), [STR +4 (40)]
37 Bard4
38 Ranger24
39 Ranger25 - Great Strength VI (41)
40 Ranger26 - STR +1 (42), Epic Weapon Focus

**Can be changed for Epic Prowess If I'm correct, but I don't know if it's a good idea.

Skillpoints: 228 (UMD, Tumble, Discipline, Taunt, Spellcraft, all maxed)
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 24/18/18
Saving Throws
HP: 488
BAB: 29
AB: 48
AC (naked / Heavy Armor): 21/29 (10 base +4 RDD -1 DEX +8 Tumble)
Damage (Greatsword): 2d6+24 + 2d6+6 vs Favored Enemies (34-54)

Oh well, it's not perfect, but it should be acceptable... practically no spellpower in this one though, but UMD is there so I suspect that's enough in high magical environments.

Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 03/14/07 01:48

Not bad. Bard song bonuses are weaker, but he can dual-wield, which could be useful in high magic, especially if weapons have useful effects like True Seeing. You should also note that he gets +2 to AB vs. the Favored Enemies thanks to BoE.

TM Is there Critical Immunity items on this server? If not, I would think Palemaster would be a good choice. Something like, 20 Bard (for Lasting Inspiration), 4 Fighter (all pre-epic as EWS isn't a huge factor), 16 Palemaster (for Epic Warding + EMA).

The AB isn't huge, but with taunt/curse song and +20 weapons, you should have favorable AB, and plenty of AC.

Quote: Posted 03/14/07 00:27 (GMT) -- Tattoed Monk

I still favor the Bard/RDD build - more spells, immunities, RDD AC boost, more skillpoints, song AC bonus, song skill bonus, curse song skill penalties for enemies, etc. It's more than just the AB. Plus, if the challenge is to go str-based, then let's go all the way. You can't get much more str-based than a Ftr/Bard/RDD.

But if you want to post a str-based WM build, by all means put it up. They are certainly good builds, although a bit focused on crits, which he already said weren't useful due to immunities. If Dev Crit was useful, then a WM Scim or Kukri build would be ideal.

TM

Yeah, but you misunderstand my point. You said that the RDD build would get higher AB than even a lvl 28 WM, which he don't. Can't match AC, skills etc, I agree, but he can match AB. In a high magic world, you should really make him a dexer Halfling too, and even beat the AB by two, and beat the AC too. No need for uncanny in such a world. A bard20/WM16/fighter4 should be good too, without doing any maths to check.
_________________
We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside
is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky
I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind
Sons of Odin fights to die and live again

Quote: Posted 03/14/07 02:41 (GMT) -- mantis3

Is there Critical Immunity items on this server? If not, I would think Palemaster would be a good choice. Something like, 20 Bard (for Lasting Inspiration), 4 Fighter (all pre-epic as EWS isn't a huge factor), 16 Palemaster (for Epic Warding + EMA).

The AB isn't huge, but with taunt/curse song and +20 weapons, you should have favorable AB, and plenty of AC.

It's more focused on defense over offense, but it could be a good way to go as long as Epic Warding is effective. If +20 weapons are available, or if they do most of their damage through elemental or divine damage, then it's not nearly as useful. If +20 is hard to find, then EW is quite good.

TM

Quote: Posted 03/14/07 19:10 (GMT) -- Grimnir77

Yeah, but you misunderstand my point. You said that the RDD build would get higher AB than even a lvl 28 WM, which he don't. Can't match AC, skills etc, I agree, but he can match AB. In a high magic world, you should really make him a dexer Halfling too, and even beat the AB by two, and beat the AC too. No need for uncanny in such a world. A bard20/WM16/fighter4 should be good too, without doing any maths to check.

I was thinking of Ftr/WM/Rogue (taunt isn't a class skill), but you are correct that a Ftr/WM/Bard with maxed Taunt could match the Ftr/Bard/RDD in AB. He is tighter on skillpoints, and still lacks the other advantages. Post the build and see how it compares overall. If crits were useful, I would probably favor the WM version. Without them, I think the RDD is better, but that's just my opinion.

TM Okay, Monk. I've leveled up to 40 and taken on several of the bosses. So far, with a belt that has crit immune, or a different one that has immunity to Harm, he's damn near untouchable, and is able to hit almost all of them, and is happy to have a duel of rolling 20s with the few he can't hit. His effective AB is 75 which includes bard song and war cry, but, oddly, not taunt. All the bosses must have discipline in the 90s; I haven't gotten off a successful taunt yet. As you can imagine, disarm does nothing either. It might have been worthwhile to sacrifice a point of strength for ESF: taunt, I don't know. Probably not.

All in all, a most successful build, and exactly what I was hoping for when I asked. Thanks much! Taunt is resisted by concentration, not discipline, but that is a bummer. They are resisting it even with Song/Curse song active? I wonder if it counts as a mind-effect, and they are immune, or something. Hmm...

Anyway, I am glad the build worked for you.

TM

Quote: Posted 03/14/07 19:26 (GMT) -- Tattoed Monk
I was thinking of Ftr/WM/Rogue (taunt isn't a class skill), but you are correct that a Ftr/WM/Bard with maxed Taunt could match the Ftr/Bard/RDD in AB. He is tighter on skillpoints, and still lacks the other advantages. Post the build and see how it compares overall. If crits were useful, I would probably favor the WM version. Without them, I think the RDD is better, but that's just my opinion.

TM

I never said wm was better than RDD. Just said it could match AB, or beat it with a dexer halfie.

I'll dish out a few builds later today.

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Dragonlance ROH is back, better than before! and I spend a little time here WoG Well, here's the human version. H-Orc would add +1 AB/Dmg.

Bard(2), Fighter(10), Weapon Master(28), Human

STR: 17 (34)
DEX: 13
CON: 14
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 8

01: Fighter(1): Dodge, Weapon Focus: Battleaxe, Mobility
02: Fighter(2): Knockdown
03: Fighter(3): Expertise
04: Fighter(4): STR+1, Spring Attack, (STR=18)
05: Fighter(5)
06: Fighter(6): Whirlwind Attack, Weapon Proficiency Exotic
07: Weapon Master(1): Weapon of Choice: Battleaxe
08: Weapon Master(2): STR+1, (STR=19)
09: Weapon Master(3): Improved Critical: Battleaxe
10: Weapon Master(4)
11: Weapon Master(5)
12: Weapon Master(6): STR+1, Blind Fight, (STR=20)
13: Weapon Master(7)
14: Fighter(7)
15: Fighter(8): Improved Knockdown, Improved Expertise
16: Fighter(9): STR+1, (STR=21)
17: Fighter(10): Weapon Focus: Scythe
18: Weapon Master(8): Improved Critical: Scythe
19: Weapon Master(9)
20: Weapon Master(10): STR+1, (STR=22)
21: Weapon Master(11): Great Strength I, (STR=23)
22: Bard(1)
23: Weapon Master(12)
24: Weapon Master(13): STR+1, Great Strength II, Epic Weapon Focus: Battleaxe, (STR=25)
25: Weapon Master(14)
26: Weapon Master(15)
27: Weapon Master(16): Great Strength III, Armor Skin, (STR=26)
28: Weapon Master(17): STR+1, (STR=27)
29: Weapon Master(18)
30: Weapon Master(19): Great Strength IV, Epic Prowess, (STR=28)
31: Weapon Master(20)
32: Weapon Master(21): STR+1, (STR=29)
33: Weapon Master(22): Great Strength V, Weapon of Choice: Scythe, (STR=30)
34: Weapon Master(23)
35: Weapon Master(24)
36: Weapon Master(25): STR+1, Great Strength VI, Epic Weapon Focus: Scythe, (STR=32)
37: Weapon Master(26)
38: Weapon Master(27)
39: Weapon Master(28): Great Strength VII, Epic Toughness I, (STR=33)
40: Bard(2): STR+1, (STR=34)

Hitpoints: 492
Skillpoints: 219
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 22/15/21
Saving Throw bonuses:
BAB: 30
AB (max, naked): 53 (melee), 32 (ranged)
With +12 STR and +20 weapon= 79. Possible Taunt for max +6 more. This AB turned out 3 better than the suggested RDD build. But way less AC and immunities of course. No idea if immunities is achieved from items.

Dmg= 1d8+12(17-20/x4) +6 with maxed STR
or Scythe 2d4 + 18 (17-20/x5) +9 with max STR.
Add +20 from the weapon, that is +80 or +100 if you can crit.

All I say is party with a bard to lower your opponents AC.

Discipline 43(55)
Intimidate 4(3)
Taunt 43(42)
Tumble 40(41)
UMD 41(40)
44 skillpoints unspent. I consider the above must-have's.

AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 21/32
_________________
We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside
is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky
I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind
Sons of Odin fights to die and live again

Edited By Grimnir77 on 03/16/07 23:53

Anyone still reading this topic?

First, thanks again for the all the help. Tattoed Monk's build worked quite well, but I'm still looking for more. I'm no longer comitted to a strength build, but race is limited to human or half-elf, which cuts out a ton of good things (like all the uber Dwarf builds, for example).

Some additional limitations and points that make this absurdly high-magic world interesting:

Saves don't matter; you have items that give you immunity to everything you might worry about.

AC is HUGE. Did one of the AA half-elf builds, and he can't survive the bosses because his AC (with gear) is only 96. *Only* 96. How do you get higher? You get your friends to help you score a particular shield that gives shield defense of 1+20. So...he must use a single-handed weapon and be able to use a shield. Right away, that takes out any dual-wielder, and all monks.

Yeah, it turns out all the bosses have insane Discipline and Concentration; we can forget taunt, knockdown, and disarm. On the other hand improved expertise is a must; there are some bosses where you just have to accept that you're rolling for 20s, and you need to stay alive while you wear them down. This also means number of attacks is important.

Forget damage, it doesn't matter. You're getting such absurd damage from the top-notch weapon you scored that the difference between d4 and d12 just doesn't enter into it, nor does EWS.

Forget crits; all the bosses are crit immune. (And several of them can dev crit you, which is another problem; if I could find a PM build with insanely high AB and AC I'd die happy).

The minimum AB to actually hit the bosses is about 50 (which turns into about 75 with your +20 weapon and +12 ability items).

And forget all those cool, sexy Paladin or Blackguard temporary boosts; the bosses will be around a long, long time after those have expired.

Sneaking? Heh. True seeing all around.

Oh, it would be an extra benefit if he could pickpocket, so I could go in and snatch those damned "heal" potions the bosses seem to carry around by the case.

And he needs have decent discipline, or he'll get disarmed. It doesn't have to be great--there are items that will boost disc. by 50 or 60. But he should have some.

The good news is there is no need to worry about anything except how he looks at level 40; leveling is easy. Exp penalties don't enter into consideration.

So there it is. In essence, I guess what I'm looking for is someone who hits like an AA, but has AC like a monk, and can carry a shield. Impossible? Hell yeah. But I'm having fun trying.

If anyone has any ideas, I'm listening.
_________________
"The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between the lightning and the lightning bug." -- Twain

Quote: First, thanks again for the all the help. Tattoed Monk's build worked quite well, but I'm still looking for more. I'm no longer comitted to a strength build, but race is limited to human or half-elf, which cuts out a ton of good things (like all the uber Dwarf builds, for example).

They went too far... what wicked, insane mind thought of a world with no dwarves? Perhaps they were afraid of dwarves... yep, definitely that's the reason.

Well, interesting, lots of problematic things to consider.

You actually missed to talk about HPs, but I think I can guess them: real high, probably 1000+ to say the least, was I right? So, casters will be crap, you'll spend all your spells to kill a single enemy.

If you deal crazy high damage that make EWS become a crappy feat then I don't get it why you wanted to go STR based in the first place, go DEX based for AC.

If you're also worried about Uncanny and sneaks are useless, maybe you could try a Barbarian / Shadowdancer / Weapon Master (well, I'm making up stuff, I haven't tried that kind of stuff to see if it works), Barbarian will give Uncanny and BAB, WM for more AB, and Shadowdancer for Epic Dodge and probably Tumble skilldumping... or sort of Rogue / Fighter / Weapon Master would work the same... so it's probably not too bad... Epic Dodge might be of worth by any means.

Even if there's True Seeing all around you can still use Concealment with Improved Invisibility, it will not get dispelled, although that would be assuming you're not doing so already...

Quote: So there it is. In essence, I guess what I'm looking for is someone who hits like an AA, but has AC like a monk, and can carry a shield. Impossible? Hell yeah. But I'm having fun trying.

Yup, we're all always trying to make such a perfect build.

Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 03/25/07 05:49

Quote: Posted 03/25/07 05:46 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia

Quote: First, thanks again for the all the help. Tattoed Monk's build worked quite well, but I'm still looking for more. I'm no longer comitted to a strength build, but race is limited to human or half-elf, which cuts out a ton of good things (like all the uber Dwarf builds, for example).

They went too far... what wicked, insane mind thought of a world with no dwarves? Perhaps they were afraid of dwarves... yep, definitely that's the reason.

Sorry for the confusion. The world has all the races, and then some. I'm dealing with the RP concept I'm working on, not the limitations of the server.

Good suggestions, there. Hmm...barb/rogue/sd...I'll do some checking on that. Thanks. For the STR based build I suggest you try the classic Bard 26/RDD 10/something 4, where something is either FTR or PAL depending on whether you can get +20 Dodge from items or not; it not, Divine Shield is goodness

I used to play a on high magic server when HotU first came out, two or three years ago maybe (?), and while my naked AB was nothing spectacular (44 IIRC), the Bard (de)buffs, spells, scrolls etc. plus Divine Feats made me an untouchable killing machine - 'twas awesome

Give it a go!

But then. I can't see you speficy if alignment changes are possible - are they?

10 STR
20 DEX
12 CON
14 INT
08 WIS
08 CHA

And yet, there's the build I already suggested once:
Elf: (Hardiness vs. Enchantments, Keen Sense, Low-light Vision, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Search, Skill Affinity: Spot, Sleeplessness)
01: Rogue(1): Expertise
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
03: Rogue(3): Dodge, {Uncanny Dodge I}
04: Rogue(4): DEX+1, (DEX=21)
05: Fighter(1): Weapon Focus
06: Fighter(2): Mobility, Spring Attack
07: Rogue(5)
08: Rogue(6): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
09: Rogue(7): Whirlwind Attack
10: Rogue(8)
11: Weapon Master(1): Weapon of Choice
12: Weapon Master(2): DEX+1, Weapon Finesse, (DEX=23)
13: Weapon Master(3)
14: Weapon Master(4)
15: Weapon Master(5): Great Fortitude
16: Weapon Master(6): DEX+1, (DEX=24)
17: Weapon Master(7)
18: Weapon Master(8): Improved Expertise
19: Weapon Master(9)
20: Weapon Master(10): DEX+1, (DEX=25)
21: Rogue(9): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=26)
22: Rogue(10): Defensive Roll
23: Rogue(11)
24: Rogue(12): DEX+1, Great Dexterity II, (DEX=28)
25: Weapon Master(11)
26: Weapon Master(12)
27: Weapon Master(13): Great Dexterity III, Epic Weapon Focus, (DEX=29)
28: Weapon Master(14): DEX+1, Epic Weapon Focus, (DEX=30)
29: Weapon Master(15)
30: Weapon Master(16): Great Dexterity IV, Epic Prowess, (DEX=31)
31: Weapon Master(17): Epic Prowess
32: Weapon Master(18): DEX+1, (DEX=32)
33: Weapon Master(19): Great Dexterity V, Armor Skin, (DEX=33)
34: Weapon Master(20): Armor Skin
35: Weapon Master(21)
36: Weapon Master(22): DEX+1, Great Dexterity VI, Epic Toughness I, (DEX=35)
37: Weapon Master(23): Epic Toughness
38: Weapon Master(24)
39: Rogue(13): Epic Dodge, Improved Evasion
40: Weapon Master(25): DEX+1, Epic Toughness II, (DEX=36)

Untested but ought to work.

AB: 51 w/ WoC (77 max)
AC: 33 naked (139 max)

HP: 428 (668)

Epic Dodge
_________________
"With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom."
Star Wreck

Edited By FinneousPJ on 03/26/07 12:41

Quote: Posted 03/13/07 17:20 (GMT) -- Tattoed Monk

Quote: Posted 03/13/07 15:28 (GMT) -- Kalmar_Oxin

It is a high magic server sp song does not affect AB.

Only the +2 to AB from Song is lost if you already have +20. The -5 to enemy AC from curse song still effectively gives you +5, as does the -6 from Taunt, and the +4 from Str. That's still 15 of the 17.

TM

Silence is all one needs to become immune to Bard song though. Taunt is there for WM builds too, provided they go with Bard as a 3rd class of course.
_________________
Heavy metal
Or no metal at all
Whimps and posers
Leave the hall!

Quote: Posted 03/25/07 08:00 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ

For the STR based build I suggest you try the classic Bard 26/RDD 10/something 4, where something is either FTR or PAL depending on whether you can get +20 Dodge from items or not; it not, Divine Shield is goodness I used to play a on high magic server when HotU first came out, two or three years ago maybe (?), and while my naked AB was nothing spectacular (44 IIRC), the Bard (de)buffs, spells, scrolls etc. plus Divine Feats made me an untouchable killing machine - 'twas awesome Give it a go!

But then. I can't see you speficy if alignment changes are possible - are they?

10 STR
20 DEX
12 CON
14 INT
08 WIS
08 CHA

And yet, there's the build I already suggested once:
Elf: (Hardiness vs. Enchantments, Keen Sense, Low-light Vision, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Search, Skill Affinity: Spot, Sleeplessness)
01: Rogue(1): Expertise
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
03: Rogue(3): Dodge, {Uncanny Dodge I}
04: Rogue(4): DEX+1, (DEX=21)
05: Fighter(1): Weapon Focus
06: Fighter(2): Mobility, Weapon Finesse
07: Rogue(5)
08: Rogue(6): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
09: Rogue(7): Spring Attack
10: Rogue(8)
11: Weapon Master(1): Weapon of Choice
12: Weapon Master(2): DEX+1, Whirlwind Attack, (DEX=23)
13: Weapon Master(3)
14: Weapon Master(4)
15: Weapon Master(5): Great Fortitude
16: Weapon Master(6): DEX+1, (DEX=24)
17: Weapon Master(7)
18: Weapon Master(8): Improved Expertise
19: Weapon Master(9)
20: Weapon Master(10): DEX+1, (DEX=25)
21: Rogue(9): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=26)
22: Rogue(10): Defensive Roll
23: Rogue(11)
24: Rogue(12): DEX+1, Great Dexterity II, (DEX=28)
25: Weapon Master(11)
26: Weapon Master(12)
27: Weapon Master(13): Great Dexterity III, Epic Weapon Focus, (DEX=29)
28: Weapon Master(14): DEX+1, Epic Weapon Focus, (DEX=30)
29: Weapon Master(15)
30: Weapon Master(16): Great Dexterity IV, Epic Prowess, (DEX=31)
31: Weapon Master(17): Epic Prowess
32: Weapon Master(18): DEX+1, (DEX=32)
33: Weapon Master(19): Great Dexterity V, Armor Skin, (DEX=33)
34: Weapon Master(20): Armor Skin
35: Weapon Master(21)
36: Weapon Master(22): DEX+1, Great Dexterity VI, Epic Toughness I, (DEX=35)
37: Weapon Master(23): Epic Toughness
38: Weapon Master(24)
39: Rogue(13): Epic Dodge, Improved Evasion
40: Weapon Master(25): DEX+1, Epic Toughness II, (DEX=36)

Untested but ought to work.

AB: 51 w/ WoC (77 max)
AC: 33 naked (139 max)

HP: 428 (668)

Epic Dodge

Whirwind Attack is a pre-requisite for Weapon Master, but just swap it with Weapon Finesse to make the build possible.

Nice Finn, there's a great example for a Rogue / Fighter / Weapon Master, good AB and AC with Epic Dodge, UMD and all, too bad sneaks won't work, but those 13 Rogue levels are needed for Epic Dodge, and I'm sure that alone will make a substantial difference.

Are you misquoting me, Thax

Thanks!

_________________
"With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom."
Star Wreck Note that SKZB specified Human for RP. That gives an extra pre-epic feat, so no problem qualifying for WM. It does cost you 1 AB and AC, since Dex will start at 18 instead of 20, but the build still works. You also have more skillpoints to play with.

You could go with the more typical Ftr 10/WM 28/Rogue 2 and pick up a few more points of AB (4, I think), but you lose Epic Dodge. For a battle of 20's, I would take Epic Dodge over a few more AB.

TM One question about this server - are there good traps available? If the bosses are so hard to hit, you may be better off with a rogue-heavy build that takes Skill Mastery and ED and SCV, pumps up Set Traps, then just sets traps around the feet of the bosses. SCV and ED should keep you alive, and if there are Deadly or better yet Epic traps available those may be more effective than weapons. Player set traps have very high DCs, so unless the bosses all have Evasion and really high reflex saves they should be quite effective (and even then, negative energy traps and frost traps cause a fort save, and sonic cause a will save). Also, Acid Blob and Frost traps can paralyze, and Sonic can stun, either of which may make them much easier to hit.

TM

Edited By Tattoed Monk on 04/02/07 19:51

Quote: Posted 03/26/07 01:29 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia

Quote: Posted 03/25/07 08:00 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ

For the STR based build I suggest you try the classic Bard 26/RDD 10/something 4, where something is either FTR or PAL depending on whether you can get +20 Dodge from items or not; it not, Divine Shield is goodness I used to play a on high magic server when HotU first came out, two or three years ago maybe (?), and while my naked AB was nothing spectacular (44 IIRC), the Bard (de)buffs, spells, scrolls etc. plus Divine Feats made me an untouchable killing machine - 'twas awesome Give it a go!

But then. I can't see you speficy if alignment changes are possible - are they?

10 STR
20 DEX
12 CON
14 INT
08 WIS
08 CHA

And yet, there's the build I already suggested once:
Elf: (Hardiness vs. Enchantments, Keen Sense, Low-light Vision, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Search, Skill Affinity: Spot, Sleeplessness)
01: Rogue(1): Expertise
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
03: Rogue(3): Dodge, {Uncanny Dodge I}
04: Rogue(4): DEX+1, (DEX=21)
05: Fighter(1): Weapon Focus
06: Fighter(2): Mobility, Weapon Finesse
07: Rogue(5)
08: Rogue(6): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
09: Rogue(7): Spring Attack
10: Rogue(8)
11: Weapon Master(1): Weapon of Choice
12: Weapon Master(2): DEX+1, Whirlwind Attack, (DEX=23)
13: Weapon Master(3)
14: Weapon Master(4)
15: Weapon Master(5): Great Fortitude
16: Weapon Master(6): DEX+1, (DEX=24)
17: Weapon Master(7)
18: Weapon Master(8): Improved Expertise
19: Weapon Master(9)
20: Weapon Master(10): DEX+1, (DEX=25)
21: Rogue(9): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=26)
22: Rogue(10): Defensive Roll
23: Rogue(11)
24: Rogue(12): DEX+1, Great Dexterity II, (DEX=28)
25: Weapon Master(11)
26: Weapon Master(12)
27: Weapon Master(13): Great Dexterity III, Epic Weapon Focus, (DEX=29)
28: Weapon Master(14): DEX+1, Epic Weapon Focus, (DEX=30)
29: Weapon Master(15)
30: Weapon Master(16): Great Dexterity IV, Epic Prowess, (DEX=31)
31: Weapon Master(17): Epic Prowess
32: Weapon Master(18): DEX+1, (DEX=32)
33: Weapon Master(19): Great Dexterity V, Armor Skin, (DEX=33)
34: Weapon Master(20): Armor Skin
35: Weapon Master(21)
36: Weapon Master(22): DEX+1, Great Dexterity VI, Epic Toughness I, (DEX=35)
37: Weapon Master(23): Epic Toughness
38: Weapon Master(24)
39: Rogue(13): Epic Dodge, Improved Evasion
40: Weapon Master(25): DEX+1, Epic Toughness II, (DEX=36)

Untested but ought to work.

AB: 51 w/ WoC (77 max)
AC: 33 naked (139 max)

HP: 428 (668)

Epic Dodge

Whirwind Attack is a pre-requisite for Weapon Master, but just swap it with Weapon Finesse to make the build possible.

Nice Finn, there's a great example for a Rogue / Fighter / Weapon Master, good AB and AC with Epic Dodge, UMD and all, too bad sneaks won't work, but those 13 Rogue levels are needed for Epic Dodge, and I'm sure that alone will make a substantial difference.

I mean no? What is this? Think, wpn finesse is a must for a dex melee build. Leave out Great Fort and the build is possible and "viable".
_________________
Valkos clueless

Quote: Posted 04/03/07 10:27 (GMT) -- Kalmar_Oxin

(quote)Posted 03/26/07 01:29 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia

(quote)Posted 03/25/07 08:00 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ

06: Fighter(2): Mobility, Weapon Finesse

I mean no? What is this? Think, wpn finesse is a must for a dex melee build. Leave out Great Fort and the build is possible and "viable".

The build has weapon finesse at level 6. The problems was I didn't have WWA before getting WM, which is impossible. Thax pointed out I needed to postpone WFinesse in favour of WWA, which is true. Check my edit.
_________________
" -- They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more."

- Pozzo in Waiting for Godot by Samuel Beckett FinneousPJ is a moderator, he can edit any post at any moment, just go back to where he posted the build and it's been corrected; the term "swap" means to exchange positions, not to lose one for another.

But Tatooed Monk is right, the real modification will be to go human, no feat problems with that.