I am rebuilding a character now that I have HotU. I originally designed the character when I got SoU and it was more as a way to try out the PrCs than anything else, but it seemed quite good. HotU now opens up new options for me so I am looking for some advice on how to rebuild. The original build was (iirc) R5-6/Asn10/SD4-5, Rapier wielding Halfling. I was not taking just a single level of SD for HiPs, I think that's cheesy and wanted to get the Shadow. The character is for both PvP (mainly raiding Faction centres, but some assassinations, casual highway robbery and pickpocketing) and PvE, but I was intending to use Sonic Traps and Darts for PvP, simply because of the fact that there are so few Sonic dealing monsters on the server hardly anyone wears Sonic resist items.

The starting stats (I wrote the stats down, but not sure what level these are for, they *should* be 1-4, but certainly no higher than 6) are:

Str: 13
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 8
Cha: 10

Why these stats? With 16 Int I start with 44 skill points at level 1, allowing me to take all the skills I needed (HotU means I can also take Intimidate and Bluff, which each have their own tools and are VERY useful, so that's something else to consider). I put 16 in Dex not because it was meant to be a Dex build but because the character uses darts for ranged weapons and I wanted at least some Dex for that. In the test area on the server I quickly realised that using 2 light weapons costs a lot of feats, so I decided to *maybe* make a Str build, but wanted to leave my options open, so she only got 13 Str with the intention of adding Str during progression. I am open to a Dex build, but not 2 weapons.

I am not sure if Finesse works on Rapiers for Halflings because they are two handed weapons. The Rapier is part of the character's RP... she talks to Mr Pointy quite frequently.

IKD is apparently VERY useful for Rogue-types on the server.

I play on Ch 2 Narc's Bonds of Blood (Dungeons & Dragons 3.5) and it has some very different rules to other servers. The server is also party heavy and discourages solo play - it's designed for 4 person parties, though most can solo to a certain extent. Unfortunately for me the class that apparently has the hardest time soloing is the Rogue types. For now the highest level boss is taken on at level 30... and getting to level 30 is a loooooooong way, even for the most dedicated powergamer. So I am looking for a build that matures early, anything past about 25 is pure icing on the cake which makes Epic feats rather tight, though I intend to take the build as high as I can (the highest level character I can readily remember seeing was 36, on a server that has at least 100 different players over any 24 hour period).

Some relevant rules taken from here
Quote: 7.1. Prestige classes are capped at level 20 as they should be. Though a player may have over 20 levels of prestige classes between 2 different prestige classes.

7.7. Shadowdancers now use the Improved Stealth Mode item to emulate Hide In Plain Sight. Hide In Plain Sight works as long as the shadowdancer is within 10 feet of a shadow. A shadowdancers chance of hiding is highly dependent upon the environment. For example, night is an excellent time for hiding. Hiding during the day in broad daylight may not be as successful. This also assumes that the shadowdancer is able to hide and move (silently) better then the pursuer can spot and listen.

7.8. Assassins can now use the Improved Stealth Mode item to emulate Hide In Plain Sight at level 8. (See the above section for Shadowdancers for more details)

8.1. All Devastating Critical feats, Improved Spell Resistance feats, Epic Damage Reduction 6/- and 9/-, Self Concealment 40+ feats, Improved Sneak Attack 6+ feat, Great Smiting 6+ feat have been removed due to some extreme values.

8.2. The Tumble skill rank is now capped at 40. Also, Amulet AC (natural AC subtype) and Tumble AC (dodge AC subtype) have been combined into a single AC type therefore they are not allowed to stack. This has been done to keep the AB to AC ratio within range of each other. Also you should not get +1 AC per 5 tumble ranks per D&D 3.5. This was an incorrect implementation of Tumble by Bioware. The maximum combined Tumble AC and Amulet AC may not exceed the [player’s level/5 + 1] max +8. A script will automatically regulate this feature.

[**In my experience you DO get the 1/5 AC/Tumble bonus**]

8.8. Skill checks are now made at every level-up to stop the skill point carry over exploit. The maximum base skills, minus items and feats, a player can have at any given level is 3 + class 1 levels (divide by 2 if cross-class skill) + class 2 levels (divide by 2 if cross-class skill) + class 3 levels (divide by 2 if cross-class skill) + the ability modifier for that skill. For example, a level 20 fighter can have 23 (not including strength modifier) discipline skill points because discipline is a class skill for fighters. Now if a level 20 fighter is trying to max his hide skills, the maximum he could have is 13 (not including his dexterity modifier) since the hide skill is a cross-class skill for a fighter (basically half of a class skill).

8.11. Classes who specialize in hiding will be glad to know that the new True Seeing SPELL can only see invisible creatures (not hidden creatures in stealth mode), see through darkness, and increases will saves. True Seeing as a NATURAL ability can still see everything (will be fixed/disabled in the future). This change makes hide in plain sight and stealth more valuable.

19.1. The Search skill is used as a percentage to determine a player’s chance of finding an extra item or extra gold within a container. The percentage is equal to the player’s Search rank/2 + 1d20. Detect mode does not need to be activated.

20.2. Banned Properties

20.2.1. Massive Criticals are not found in D&D. They should be massive criticals with certain element types.

20.2.2. Dodge AC cannot be found on any item per D&D rules. Therefore boots no longer provide AC.

20.2.3. Immunities cause some of the biggest harm to certain classes. Rings with save properties that can stack have replaced immunities.

20.2.4. Vorpal, wounding, and any instant death on-hit effects.

20.2.5. Haste (use spell instead)

20.3. Maximum Item Properties Per Item

20.3.1. Bane Enhancement, Bane Attack Bonus, and Ability Bonus are +10.

20.3.2. Enhancement, Attack Bonus, AC, Mighty, and Saves are +8.

20.3.3. Damage Reduction is 10/+8.

20.3.4. Element Damage Resistance is 40/-.

20.3.5. Melee Damage Resistance is 10/-.

20.3.6. Spell Resistance is 28.

20.3.7. Damage Bonus is 2d8.

20.3.8. On-hit DC is 24.

20.4. New Item Properties

20.4.1. Bane Weapons – these items have +1 or +2 more enhancement versus a certain race. So a +3 sword could have a +5 property versus dragons.

20.4.2. Chaos, Law, Holy, and Unholy swords do divine damage to the opposing alignment. Negative damage could not be used because there are too many immunity spells to negative damage.

20.4.3. Throwing items like darts now provide many new on-hit effects like deafening, stun, etc.

[**Deafen, Stun, Blind, Confusion, Silence, Slow, Str damage, Con damage... others**]

20.4.4. New Holy Avenger that does positive damage.

20.4.5. Staffs may have ability points like intelligence to raise the caster’s DC.

20.4.6. Staffs can have every spell from level 0 to level 9.

25.4. The pickpocket formula has a range of [0, pickpocket rank/2] x the targets challenge rating/2. So with a pickpocket skill of 30 and a target of level 10, a player could pickpocket a minimum of 0gp and maximum of 15 x 5 = 75gp.

25.5. A pickpocket must roll at least 20 to pickpocket a non-hostile creature and at least 30 to pickpocket a hostile creature.

25.6. To detect a pickpocket, the target must have a spot check higher then the pickpocket check.

25.7. As a bonus, the pickpocket skill rank works as a percentage to find items on a monster.


29.1. The maximum base skills, minus items and feats, a player can have at any given level is 3 + class 1 levels (divide by 2 if cross-class skill) + class 2 levels (divide by 2 if cross-class skill) + class 3 levels (divide by 2 if cross-class skill) + the ability modifier for that skill. This is a major exploit in Neverwinter, where skill points can be carried over to other levels. This is no longer the case as it is fixed here. Example, the maximum CROSS-CLASS skill rank a player can have at level 20 is 3 + 20/2 = 13 + ability modifier (should be lower but makes it easier to remember). The maximum CLASS skill ranks a player may have at level 20 is 3 + 20 = 23 + ability modifier.

Sorry for the long quote, but these are all the most relevent rules regarding this build and the rule book is waaaay too long for most people to bother reading. I didn't post the bit about Intimidate and Bluff.

Anyway, go wild. I am after an Assassin-Rogue build with some SD skills (maybe something along the lines of Asn20/R15/SD5??), but am really open to any suggestions. The build needs to have high Set Traps, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, UMD. Next skills (still fairly high) are Pickpocket, Open Locks, Spot, Listen, Search, Disable, Spellcraft. If possible a decent amount of Discipline and Concentration too, to help against Intimidate, Bluff and Taunt. Lots of skills = need for high Int.
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N.O.M.A.N.
National Organisation of Matrimonial Attorneys Nationwide

"Let N.O.M.A.N. put asunder" Why bother with SD at all when the server gives Assassins the same modified HiPS for free? Just go with Rogue/Assassin, or Rogue/Assassin/Ftr.

If you are worried about weapon finesse, and using a 2-handed weapon anyway, go Str-based. Check out Grizz's Zhantarim Scout build. Go Rogue/Assassin/Fighter. Remove SD from the build, keep the fighter levels (or at least 6 of them), and replace most of the Rogue with Assassin. She'll still be an effective sneaker with the skill foci, and she'll deal a TON of damage. Mr Pointy will generate plenty of shock when he gets pushed in by a female Halfling with a 20+ base Str.

TM I got an idea for your build.

You talk a lot to Mr. Pointy.. well take exotic and go with kukris.. That's MISTER and MISSES Sharp

A lot more fun haha!

T.monk is right about the need for SD. It isn't worth it. Assassin will give you a lot more. A Rogue/Assassin/Fighter is really worth the effort with Assassin gaining a modified HIPS. a 19rogue/10ftr/11assassin will make you a killer character. Heh. 13 Rogue for ED, then as much assassin as possible. 1,2 or 4 fighter levels, all depending upon how much feats you need compared to Death attack DC. I would never in such a build have more than 1 SD level not even if you needed HiPS.

I know many people disagree, but SD is useless aside from HiPS. If you just got HoTU I recommend you to re-check the Cleric spell list, unless you really hate Clerics, because HoTU adds some very powerful spells to the Cleric list like GMW and Darkfire, Cleric is always a great addition to any build or party, since SD is of no worth for you, it can work as a third class.

Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 05/13/07 16:06

Quote: Posted 05/12/07 14:42 (GMT) -- Saints of Apocalypse

I got an idea for your build.

You talk a lot to Mr. Pointy.. well take exotic and go with kukris.. That's MISTER and MISSES Sharp

A lot more fun haha!

Soooo... you didn't read my post properly and just decided that spending 5(?) feats is a good idea, and more fun, simply because everyone else does it?

I appreciate the input about SD from everyone, but I am taking SD levels specifically to get the Shadow (something that I mentioned in my first post... I know it was long... ). The fact that I also get HiPS is a bonus, but one that will be put to good use (the Improved Stealth tool does not make the PC invisible to party members). The Shadow is one of the very, very, few summons that hasn't been nerfed from here to eternity and is actually of use in the high CR areas of the game... even a basic Shadow is strong enough to survive against the more powerful enemies long enough for it's master to slip into the shadows and escape.

Right now the build is looking to be Strength based with a split of Asn 20/Rogue 14-17/SD 3-6. I'll be needing that Shadow somewhere around lvl 15-18.

The thing I'm really not clear about is how to make the most out of pre-epic levels (BAB etc), so any ideas for that?
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"Chaotic Stupid is not an alignment, sorry folks." - Chass.

To which I'll add: 1337sp33k4 is not a name and n00bk1ll4 is not a profession. Answer me this. WHY on earth do you want SD in that build if assassin gets HiPS?

Keep Roguetype classes in batches of 4 to preserve BAB, since they lose BAB at lvls 1,5,9 etc. So Rogue12/Asn8 by lvl 20. Drop the SD down the drain and leave it there for good, as the only thing it brings to such a build is HiPS, in your case not even that.
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We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside
is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky
I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind
Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Quote: Posted 05/15/07 10:32 (GMT) -- Grimnir77

Answer me this. WHY on earth do you want SD in that build if assassin gets HiPS?


Re-read my last post, especially the part where it says I am taking SD specifically for the Shadow and not for HiPS.
_________________
N.O.M.A.N.
National Organisation of Matrimonial Attorneys Nationwide

"Let N.O.M.A.N. put asunder" Yeah, well, it isn't worth it IMO. If you think it is, it's of course your choice.
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We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside
is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky
I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind
Sons of Odin fights to die and live again A use of the UMD skill can allow you to use scrolls that will summon Shadows (or other types of critters) for you.

for Shadows use Shades or Shadow Conjuration scrolls.

for a Ghoul use Create Undead scroll.

for a Vampire Create Greater Undead.


That would free up your 5 SD levels and still allow you a pet for a limited time.

Of course, it won't be a substitute for the feats obtained with 5 levels of SD. Sokar Rostau, you made the topic asking for advice in making your build am I correct? we powerbuilders advice you to drop Shadowdancer because the Shadow Summon is crap and so not worth it because you already have HiPS with Assassin and Rogue levels to qualify for Epic Dodge. Those two are pretty much the only reasons we take Shadowdancers. You don't have to like the answer, it is you after all who will make the build and play it, that's simply the advice given.

If you were to drop Shadowdancer you're also dropping the pre-requisites (Dodge and Mobility) so you're at a feat gain without even considering what third class to choose.

In general rule if you want a summon you use a Druid, simply because a Druid summoning capability outmatches all other classes, I hardly believe even a nerfed Animal Companion would ever lose against the shadow of the same level, in my summoning experience, I've never found any use to the shadow gained with Shadowdancer, it's really very weak, how can it withstand the most powerful enemies where an Elemental Swarm does not? that simply doesn't happens. The problem is at any rate you'll need a heavy amount of levels in your summoning class to make it whorthwhile, so it will be weak anyway.

Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 05/15/07 22:37

Quote: Posted 05/15/07 19:13 (GMT) -- Bromium

Of course, it won't be a substitute for the feats obtained with 5 levels of SD.

What exactly does SD bring in feats, that rogue/asn doesn't bring?
_________________
We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside
is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky
I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind
Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Quote: 
Level 1 Hide in Plain Sight
Level 2 Darkvision, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge I
Level 3 Shadow Daze, Summon Shadow
Level 4 Shadow Evade
Level 5 Defensive roll, Uncanny Dodge II

That's what you get, Rogue gets Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, and can get Defensive Roll as well though spending a feat, your Assassin is gaining Hide in Plain Sight, so pretty much only the Summon Shadow, Shadow Daze and Shadow Evade (with only 5 levels of Shadowdancer, they're extremely weak).

Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 05/16/07 15:24

That's my point, he gets nothing. Better to spend 3 rogue levels to defensive roll than 5 SD. He'll even have two pre-epic feats more(maybe) without SD. Since he is a halfling who wields rapier he must be STR-based too. Defensive roll isn't to useful then.
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We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside
is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky
I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind
Sons of Odin fights to die and live again Given all the devastating changes to that server, who knows to what extent the shadow has changed. If they've changed things like Tumble and natural AC stacking, I'm willing to bet that just about every class has some changes. But we weren't given that info, so all of this, including the advice above, is conjecture, albeit educated conjecture.

Since there is so much overlap between these 3 classes. I would be more incline to do something like Rogue10/SD10/Assn20. This will still get you Epic Dodge (if not nerfed) and Crippling Strike. Of course, if you're not dex-based, then I wouldn't recommend any of this and would just point you to a melee-based build.
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Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Quote: Posted 05/16/07 16:58 (GMT) -- grizzled_dwarflord

Given all the devastating changes to that server, who knows to what extent the shadow has changed. If they've changed things like Tumble and natural AC stacking, I'm willing to bet that just about every class has some changes. But we weren't given that info, so all of this, including the advice above, is conjecture, albeit educated conjecture.

Which brings me to the advice that was my first instinct to give: Find another server.

TM
Quote: Posted 05/16/07 20:09 (GMT) -- Tattoed Monk
Which brings me to the advice that was my first instinct to give: Find another server.

TM

While there may be legit reasons to do that, I don't want to be the one to advocate to someone else to change servers because this or that has been nerfed. Perhaps it is an amazing an interactive world, and given the talent required to script the changes I saw, such is entirely possible.
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Ariel, Ookla, RIDE! Educated conjecture? yeah you're probably right wise dwarflord, but we do that a lot by now, or else it wouldn't be as fun being always so simple. I might've gone too far on it, I still find it hard to believe a summon shadow is a good choice at any rate.

I always play where I know I can control the power of my builds... so I don't know that much about nerfing, I dislike almost all nerfing, so you might count my criticism out if the nerfing beats all my comments.

You can always find another server when one bores you or such, so that isn't really an advice of any sort, more like an opinion, though I might side with TM on that, we're no one to judge PWs here. I am not trying to pass general judgement on the server, but if he wants to RP a specific build, and the modifications on the server nerf many of the abilities of that build, it seems to me that it may be time to either pick another build or pick another server. Our first series of posts was advising changes to the build. He doesn't want to do that, so the next obvious choice is to change to a server where his original build concept works better. But it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to focus on a build with many levels of SD on a server where SD adds so little to the build.

TM It doesn't add little, as I've been trying to hint. It adds only the shadow, or in other words, nothing. But it is still his choice to make, so if he really wants a shadow I say go for it. But if wanted a shadow that bad, I'd rather just turn on a single lamp to my left.