Everyone's always telling me bards are actually really good in PvP. Are there are Bard builds that are actually good in PvP, that don't use RDD or PM?...No? Thought so...
If someone can't link me one...
+5 Enviroment No RDD or PM Lots of Devers yadda yadda. You knowwww! Make him kill things, and not die!
Edited By Endalyor on 08/22/07 05:50
Blade, WM 28/Ftr 11/Bard 1 (Human, CN) Click Here (AB 64, add +6 Taunt (w. str, +5 weapon / Dev.Crit DC 48), suit to taste; i.e. ESF: Discipline wants to get in there; and if dexers, swap spellcraft for detection (enhance w. umd/amplify); could also go half-orc (+1 dev.crit DC, ab and damage )
Hey, you asked for bard (didn't say how much
Prefer a singer? Sling Blade (Fighting Bard-SONG Version) Bard(21)/Fighter(4)/COT(15) (Human, CN), Click Here , Suit to taste
BTW, watcha got against RDDs? (is it the wings? _________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good [people] to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke, Philosopher and Politician (1729-1797)
Edited By TyrTemplar on 08/22/07 06:38
Quote: Posted 08/22/07 05:49 (GMT) -- Endalyor
Everyone's always telling me bards are actually really good in PvP. Are there are Bard builds that are actually good in PvP, that don't use RDD or PM?...No? Thought so...
If someone can't link me one...
+5 Enviroment No RDD or PM Lots of Devers yadda yadda. You knowwww! Make him kill things, and not die!
One of the major strengths of the bard class is that its so well suited for multiclassing. There is no reason to frown upon PM and RDD and use them as an argument against bards, only because bards actually can take them. Bards also make strong arcane archers. A high lvl bard song is a great buffer in team pvp.
Multiclassing with bard as minor class is great for skilldumps (discipline, stelth skills, spellcraft, tumble, UMD etc.) and for qualifying for PM, RDD or AA. Multiclassing with bard as major class is a great way to add other class feats and skills to the bard build.
The list of builds is long. _________________ I generally avoid temptation, unless I can't resist it...
You could try Bard Shifter, take undead form for SPECTRE (not Risen) and put up your Extended Wounding Wispers. Go in and spam Disarms (not Improved Disarm) to cause an AoO or two. Sing/Curse/Taunt. Spectre Invisible yourself, take weapon finness. You can also try your shadow attack for 1d6 str drain on them.
You'd be immune to KD, Disarm (by default) so you don't need ANY Discipline.
Taking lots of CON to get EDR III would be useful. A bit of Int and the rest CHA (if there's any left).
Only Armor merges, so try to pump it up with Regeneration.
Quote: Posted 08/22/07 06:28 (GMT) -- TyrTemplar
Blade, WM 28/Ftr 11/Bard 1 (Human, CN) Click Here (AB 64, add +6 Taunt (w. str, +5 weapon / Dev.Crit DC 48), suit to taste; i.e. ESF: Discipline wants to get in there; and if dexers, swap spellcraft for detection (enhance w. umd/amplify); could also go half-orc (+1 dev.crit DC, ab and damage )
Hey, you asked for bard (didn't say how much
Cheater!
The second one wasn't half bad.
And yes, I don't want RDD because of the wings Or PM... Because in the world I play in, if I do, I'll have to be a super evil dude, and I like playing the good guys more!
I'd more prefer a dex build...A bard with ED should be good, no?
Edited By Endalyor on 08/22/07 15:27
Some people don't want to play an RDD, I think they're great with bards (as is PM), but not everyone's loving those wings -- this is most true; and others don't like the idea of a PM (some worlds it's an evil thing) - I respect that totally)
There is just so much to the bard, and can't think of anything or combo really that doesn't benefit from at least one
*** EDIT: (crossing posts) - (thanks
EDR dex bard? Sneaker or Archer? Mid bard, or high bard or ... (I really think if it's enabled, str-based/dev.crit is a good way to go all-around (vs everyone really, but dem pesky dexers especially), and when you sing up your skills, curse down theirs --- stealth? what stealth? (really though, with bard, no matter how you tune that mandolin, dex or str really, just can't go wrong ...
(yeah, I admit it: I love dem bards - and when it comes to party pvp, I pity the party that doesn't have one _________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good [people] to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke, Philosopher and Politician (1729-1797)
Edited By TyrTemplar on 08/22/07 16:22
He doesn't want RDD/PM because he's not allowed to take RDD or PM; it requires DM permission.
Anyways, if you want high AB, I'd try some kind of Paladin Bard Fighter. 16 Paladin 20 Bard 4 Fighter would be very good, STR-based. It could be DEX as well, but it gets no Epic Dodge, or Uncanny Dodge.
So, I'd try a 20 Bard 10 SD 10 Fighter of sorts, or maybe even 23 Bard 4 Ftr 13 Rogue (depends if you want Sneak Attacks, or HiPS).
Any Bard with Lasting Inspiration will be a good support character, but with Paladin levels for AB, or Epic Dodge for defense, it will be a good melee'er too.
Click Here
This build here, 26 bard/ 4 fighter/ 10 CoT seems like a very good build. High AC in Fullplate, 55 AB with song and War Cry(I think it's called) not to mention -6 from targets AC from taunt, and a -6 from curse song, in turn a collective AB of like 67, and bards get haste, and imp invis, it seems really nice, and looks like decent damage also. The only thing I'd need to change are those little feats like Luck of Heroes (not too bad) Iron Will, Epic Will, and so on. I don't really need those too much And also, he doesn't get dev, but still, not bad. Any ideas?
I would drop Fighter for Paladin, giving you added saves (very handy on a Dev. Crit. world) and also Divine Shield AC. But up to you, really.
Edit: I think that would require an alignment change.
Edited By mantis3 on 08/22/07 20:52
Send a PM to Cinnabar Din (or wait until he posts here, of course), he's the Guild's Bardic Master, if anyone can make an amazing Bard build that's him.
I don't play Bards much, so I don't think I can help. _________________
Quote: Posted 12/19/06 19:54 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ
Thax the Shadow Dragon sez: MONKS USE KAMAS. Just ask him.
Unfortunately, I'd have to say I don't think Bards would be all that good in PvP environment, unless it's extremely low magic. They just don't have the HPs and especially in a world that allows Dev Crit, they're gonna be quick toast, as Fort is their low save. By this I mean a character that's predominantly Bard. But I don't do PvP, so maybe you can build a good PvP Bard with no RDD or PM, but I'm unfortunately not the one to ask.
And what's up with needing DM permission to take PM levels when you've got Dev Crit nightmares running around willy-nilly? I mean, PM is your only means of guaranteeing you can't be one-shot killed, requiring you to burn at least 3 levels in SOR, WIZ or Bard, and also burning up 2 of your 3 class choices (for the caster class and the PM). And those Dev Critters, whom I'm willing to bet are running around with either kukris, rapiers, or scimitars, can basically spam you with insta-kill Fort saves ad nauseum. Nice rule on that server. Really. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
OK, did it
Retweaked Sling Blade (yeah, he was a tad bit old and needed some polish -- and seems we've done so (will repost proper, but here's a sneak preview:
20 BArd/10 Fighter/10 Cot (Human, CN), a Lasting, Fighting Bard (Dev Crit. + No Dev. Crit) One with Dev.Crit with all buffing spells to level 4 in tact; the other with 6th level bard spells. Both, are lasters, enjoying a nice set of skills. HPs could be better (428), but in-line/acceptable (meets or exceeds our so-called 400 minimum, and especially good actually on a LI bard), with high str-based damage, bolstered by buffs, song, and WS/EWS, along with lots of protection/preservation spell, incl. darkness, impr.invis., grease, wounding whispers ... (you know which ones
Assuming Strength here only (pretty much has everything else, and especially nice in a low-ish magic world:
STR 44, Dev.Crit. DC 47, +2 curse, or DC 49 AB 44, +2 song: 46 (Naked AB), +6 STR: AB 52, +2 war cry, +5 gmw ... etc., etc. Combat: 69 AB, +6 Taunt: 73 AB (Combat / Self-buffed w. Str only)(BioCap: 70, +6 Taunt: 76 AB (melee) (oh, and then there's that smite thing ...
Good Defence: around 70 AC (and 50% Concelment (impr.invis), self-haste, too.), with nice saves also; , for e.g., Fort 30 (32 song, add +5 fort cloak or ring, +5 saves ring or scarab, and +2 from a simple endurance potion: 44, +5 div.wrath (add +5/6 vs. Spells)--not exactly worried -- oh, yeah, and with LI he sings good, too (well, not as good as do yours Cinn, but you know how me likes dem fighting bards
All the Best, Tyr
EDIT pssst. folks, if you want to see a Singer, you have got to check Cinn's out --- really, I kid you not; his be master musical maestros alright, gets to the pinnacle of the performance (how does he squeeze them in -- an orchestral conductor I tells you; mine be singing knights by comparison (but just can't help it - me likes dem fighting bards (wanna come along for the journey, Cinn? Indeed, your maestros be welcome anytime!
EDIT 2: Ah, kinda reminds me of the series in which that Sling Blade originally started his career, in which series I posed the following question: Is the Pen (song) stronger than the Sword? _________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good [people] to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke, Philosopher and Politician (1729-1797)
If you knew Endalyor as well as I did, you'd know it was another of his completely pointless questions. Hence why I ignored it.
Somewhy I remembered about what mantis3 said back then...
You want a ninja? learn ninjitsu.
Umm why do we get drawn in by this dude? All he appears to be doing is makin up pointless threads to get attention, which dont seem to go anywhere.... btw, for the 100000000th time, its not the classes, levels, race, creed, god, items, server, or anything else that makes a player good. IT is the SKILL that user has. SOme people are good at pvp, others arent. AND, just for the record, IF you have to ask about good pvp builds, you arnt good for one reason, you dont have the ability to design your own build which means you dont have the skill to use ANY build. Instead of asking over and over, "best build", get in a game and PLAY ANYTHING to learn what YOU like!
Alas, next week, we will be discussing the POWER of the low charisma HALF ORC Sorceror/rogue and WHY he rulz at pvp vs pms! Come on, you know its true... IF you dont believe me, ask mantis (see above).
This post is for general information purposes only, and does not constitute a legal opinion or render any legal advice. It may not be relied on for any purpose, and gives rise to
Edited By avado on 08/23/07 04:31
Quote: Posted 08/22/07 18:45 (GMT) -- Endalyor
Click Here
This build here, 26 bard/ 4 fighter/ 10 CoT seems like a very good build. High AC in Fullplate, 55 AB with song and War Cry(I think it's called) not to mention -6 from targets AC from taunt, and a -6 from curse song, in turn a collective AB of like 67, and bards get haste, and imp invis, it seems really nice, and looks like decent damage also. The only thing I'd need to change are those little feats like Luck of Heroes (not too bad) Iron Will, Epic Will, and so on. I don't really need those too much And also, he doesn't get dev, but still, not bad. Any ideas?
Dev Crit can be achieved quite easily in this build. Luck of Heros, Iron Will and Scribe Scroll can all be lost for PA, Cleave and Great Cleave. Drop 2 x Great STR for Over Crit and Dev Crit. You won't lose a lot by doing that.
This is a very versatile character as it stands, with very good all round saves. Pre-epic can be a bit testing at times, but past 17th she has been one of my favourite meleers (even without Dev).
Quote: Posted 08/23/07 04:31 (GMT) -- avado
Umm why do we get drawn in by this dude? All he appears to be doing is makin up pointless threads to get attention, which dont seem to go anywhere.... btw, for the 100000000th time, its not the classes, levels, race, creed, god, items, server, or anything else that makes a player good. IT is the SKILL that user has. SOme people are good at pvp, others arent. AND, just for the record, IF you have to ask about good pvp builds, you arnt good for one reason, you dont have the ability to design your own build which means you dont have the skill to use ANY build. Instead of asking over and over, "best build", get in a game and PLAY ANYTHING to learn what YOU like!
We're bored? probably that's about it.
Quote: Alas, next week, we will be discussing the POWER of the low charisma HALF ORC Sorceror/rogue and WHY he rulz at pvp vs pms! Come on, you know its true... IF you dont believe me, ask mantis (see above).
Yeah... I look forward to that, I'll prepare my feat-starved WIS/CHA based Wizard 38 / Weapon Master 1 / Dwarven Defender 1, let's have a fair duel. _________________
Quote: Posted 07/28/06 23:16:09 (GMT) -- Big Meph Using the 2 ESF's in a dex based sneak build, to me, just looks like you're teasing your diabetic opponent with extra sugar on your whipcream covered chocolate mudcake.
If you knew Endalyor as well as I did, you'd know it was another of his completely pointless questions. Hence why I ignored it.
Somewhy I remembered about what mantis3 said back then...
You want a ninja? learn ninjitsu.
Umm why do we get drawn in by this dude? All he appears to be doing is makin up pointless threads to get attention, which dont seem to go anywhere.... btw, for the 100000000th time, its not the classes, levels, race, creed, god, items, server, or anything else that makes a player good. IT is the SKILL that user has. SOme people are good at pvp, others arent. AND, just for the record, IF you have to ask about good pvp builds, you arnt good for one reason, you dont have the ability to design your own build which means you dont have the skill to use ANY build. Instead of asking over and over, "best build", get in a game and PLAY ANYTHING to learn what YOU like!
Alas, next week, we will be discussing the POWER of the low charisma HALF ORC Sorceror/rogue and WHY he rulz at pvp vs pms! Come on, you know its true... IF you dont believe me, ask mantis (see above).
Good luck
Ouch man, ouch. You know you love me and my posts
Btw, Tyr, those builds are awesome, glad I inspired you to make them.
Don't mean to be harsh at all. It just gets hard to take someone seriously when they are posting a different theme question every day (OK, week ) when there is no possible way you could have absorbed the one from the week before. Especially the type of questions you ask! The ninja post COULD have been a great one, then you abandon it and on to insulting bards! LOL
It just sounds to me like you need to find a class you enjoy and play with it abit. Make mistakes. Learn. THen come back and TEACH us!!!
Oh, and I am sure, in the mean time... we will still read posts about "Wis based Halfling Assassin/rdd/fighters RULZZ" or whatever you come up with next... *sigh _________________
Oh, c'mon now, Avado. Yeah, I do hear you, in terms of Endaylor's requests (and you're not being harsh, so far as, c'mon, let's face it, we like to think our builds are actually going to get played, yes? totally understand what you're saying, and excellent point I might add about the need to understand not only what one is playing, but also the weaknesses as to what you're up against, at least as it relates to PvP -- on the other hand, I built for Endaylor (if I may say, and as folks here know about me I am probably these days one of the most humble builders around, but at the same time, I do PvP, and I do know what it takes to win the battle - at the end of the day, discretion is the better part of valor, and frankly, I don't blame Endaylor for his requests (in fact, it really was fun: I've some old builds here, he happened to request a topic which be one of my own particular specialities, that of the fighting bard (and it's cool, gave Endaylor quite a few play tips too I might add -- I could go on about the dev.crit DC 49, etc. etc. etc. not to mention that we achieve it by level 24 (without I might add, as in zero, RDD and saves so high that frankly, don't need any PM either (just don't roll a 1, 'kay
Frankly, I let my characters speak for themselves; when players have a question, or need to know how something works, they tend to ask -- and he gets it (ain't that right, Endaylor? And I thank him -- afterall, if it weren't for Endaylor's request, I wouldn't have achieved what I set out for Sling to be in the first place: that of a true (and I mean true) fighting bard! And as he said, he's playing it, and he gets it, and ... (OK, enough -- coz at the end of the day, as Avado says, it really about playing that which you yourself are comfortable with; that he gets, and I assure you that in turn, he too now loves them fighting bards
Honestly, that humbles me that I helped him find what he ultimately wants (and at the end of the day, it was he who got me to tweak an old build of mine and together, we not only got him exactly what he wanted and feels great playing and comfortable with, but also what I wanted to build in the first place -- as in, a true FIGHTING BARD. So, yeah, thank you, Endaylor, I appreciate your request and high compliments (yeah, Sling now is that good as a result, he truly is, thanks to Endaylor's request else I never would have had reason to revisit that build): and really, from the bottom of my heart, built him for you, and so glad to hear you're enjoying him (coz in the end, ain't that all that matters?
As many people here know, I am a law professor in real life, and truly enjoy NwN (been playing DND, well let's not get into it On the other hand, I enjoy these discussions, and for one appreciate the opportunity to update one of my builds --- I know a heck of a lot more than I did back then, and for sure also gave Endaylor play tipe. Maybe it's up to us to teach, yes? And when it comes to PvP, like you say my old friend, it's about finding what you like to play, and then sticking to it.
I highly recommend someone takes their build into a leveller/training mod (I personally enjoy Commche's uber magic world, insane DR enemies and the like, and put my own characters up against them with nothing but mundane equipment; then again, what do I know, I'm only the fighting bard professor
That's my point of view, and my opinion on the subject; and you make an excellent point, Avado --- you truly do; you I generally agree with most of what you have to say, and that, geez man, at the end of the day I love ya; on the other hand, it's up to us builders to be honest and let the players know what the heck is going on. You don't win battles imo in PvP b/c of what you got per se, but rather as to what the enemy is lacking, and you adjust for their strengths, so as to take advantage of all their weaknesses. This is nothing new, btw, and has nothing to do with versatility: it has to do with natural stats (in pvp, everything should assume they get morded, and that's a fact; and while some enjoy casters, others do melee, frankly, give me a fighting bard anyday -- I know how to play 'em, and never let me down to date; as Mith long ago taught me, if what you need to do is run around for a bit, then so be it.
Afterall, this is a game and at the end of the day, natural stats matter. Period. And while I like I.Samphus' build for PvM (too bad Endaylor can't take up his and my Pale Rider, the BG/PM/Bard --- yeah, Samphus, we did good on that one for sure, and thanks once again for talking me into a casting/singing bard But when it comes to PvP, I prefer and will always take the sword. End of story. One hit and be done with it I say; and end of story. Once again, Natural Stats Matter (and what in Odin's name might I add is gonna save vs. a DC 40 dev.crit (well, with how I tweaked the Sling, we will - and finally it seems, yes, and thanks to Endaylor who got me to relook at the fellow, and which I for one appreciate since he saves, others don't. That simple. pVp ISN'T about versatility -- it's about dev.critting (and with all his buffs, curse+song, if dexers are smart enough, they'll stay away is alls I be saying. Then again, when I first started to PvP, dare I admit, I ran up against a dwarven mage wall with the shield, thinking some high speed monk sr with low ab etc would do the trick --- boy, was I sorry Live and learn I say; and trust me, when it comes to PvP, my bards have never and I do mean never let me down (and thanks to Endaylor, and I mean it, since everyone these days in pvp are suddenly going neutral to avoid paladin smite (cheating, it truly is, so I build paladin Dev.critters now, smite is nice, but they wanna cheat that? Great, take this instead I say --- it's the nature of the beast, and we builders gotta keep up I say (afterall, what someone taught a law student back in say 1924 is about as relevant today as say oh, I don't know, 1.68 as it relates to divine power
Heck, no wonder Endaylor is confused --- he knows what he wants, but wants to "win" too (ain't that right, Endaylor --- and reason why we focussed here on a melee (as in fighting) bard
On the other hand, and not gonna say I've the most bard combos goin' (coz I probably don't), but frankly and always I have preferred the fighting bard, period, and stand by my story. And having explained to our friend, Endaylor, who truly now understands the nature of the bard, and all their great stuff (as well as weaknesses - c'mon, not giving up all my secrets you know -- at the end of the day, he's better by far than most melee'rs period, and will truly (and I do mean truly) enjoy his fighting bard .... (he knows what to do, ain't that right, Endaylor? )
As we say at the law school, some folks are future corpies, others litigators -- but on occasion, and it truly is a treat, I meet not only a future legislature (actually trained one, and that was plain neat!), but given time, a future supreme court justice. Those are the ones who ask the "hard questions" and see things that perhaps we didn't originally, and make us do better; if my builds inspire someone (and they obviously did) and that someone in turn asks great questions (wbich they in turn did), then I for one am happy to tweak it, to ensure it is appropriate and fits into their particular world. Afterall, as we also say in the law (whether clients like it or not, but I assure you, they get it a whole lot quicker than do our students -- with the exception of the good students that is, and Endaylor as it relates to build-making I must say, he fits into the "good student" wanna learn more and ask the hard questions of his professor, ... the law are dependent on the facts, meaning they turn on the specific situation in which you are playing. And in this case, what can I tells ya, he understands and has truly come to appreciate the wonders of the fighting bard!
(next week, you can teach him about the clerics, Avado; but in the meantime, stop stealing my coverts will you? Coz everyone loves dem fighting bards ...
Adding a little bardic magic to melee'rs one player at a time, Tyr
p.s. but if you're into clerics, heck, that be Avado's specialty (love you man, really do and you know it, but c'mon, let's go easy on the guy (and really, Endaylor, please know it was my absolute pleasure to build for you a fighting bard -- enjoy (indeed, as I said at the outset, everyone loves dem bards _________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good [people] to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke, Philosopher and Politician (1729-1797)
Edited By TyrTemplar on 08/24/07 04:44
Quote: Posted 08/23/07 19:00 (GMT) -- Endalyor
Btw, Tyr, those builds are awesome, glad I inspired you to make them.
So very nice to hear that you are enjoying them, Endaylor, and really, enjoy! Totally my pleasure to build for you, it is, and yes, if it weren't for you, I never would have revisited the "old ones" -- indeed, you did inspire me as a result to re-tweak the fellow, and I in turn thank you for that. As to repayment, well, just go kill lots of stuf (which you will, w. a dev.crit DC 49, all that AB/Damage and Defence to boot, and we'll consider it done, kay?
Oh, and if you should ever need a paladin ... (nah, you know what they say, once you go bard ...
Really, Endaylor, just teasing you: yes, it's a difficult decision and quite understandable as to why you would be let's say pondering builds; i.e., asking questions like, what I should play, what fits me, what do I want to do. We ALL do. When it comes to PvP --- and really, like me. and so glad to hear, as took me some time too btw folks -- but at the end of the day, just gotta love dem fighting bards (once again, totally my pleasure to build for you, enjoy! And so glad to have been the one to have helped you find that which it is you're looking for and getting me arse off the line to build that which it was intended in the first place -- really, enjoy (and yes, your request did inspire me, and so glad to hear that I inspired you, too -- enjoy, and thanks. Always so good to hear!
Besto, everyone ~ Tyr _________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good [people] to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke, Philosopher and Politician (1729-1797)
Edited By TyrTemplar on 08/24/07 05:22
*Applauds Tyr's posts* Well said.
One has to ask questions to learn, no?
Besides, what else are you going to do besides answer my silly build questions? And you never know, maybe you'll get inspired by one of them.
Oh, question, Tyr! mantis was telling me instead of CoT, I should go paladin, for better saves, and better AB via paladin spells. Would this be a good idea?
Quote: Posted 08/25/07 04:21 (GMT) -- Endalyor
*Applauds Tyr's posts* Well said.
One has to ask questions to learn, no?
Besides, what else are you going to do besides answer my silly build questions? And you never know, maybe you'll get inspired by one of them.
Oh, question, Tyr! mantis was telling me instead of CoT, I should go paladin, for better saves, and better AB via paladin spells. Would this be a good idea?
If your PW allows Bard/Paladin/Ftr that might be your best bet. _________________ " -- They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more."
- Pozzo in Waiting for Godot by Samuel Beckett
You also just gave him a huge XP burden
Actually, I don't think so, at least, not if you want to enjoy Dev.Crit (10 paladin? any such pally spells would be so extremely vulnerable to dispelling, I just don't think it's worth it, and wouldn't get any pally spells unless upped your wis (in turn, lowering str. etc), imo: yes, divine grace is nice (puts your cha. mod into your saves, and can enhance w. cha items, etc), but would lose the 5 save boost you get from CoT sacred defense. Also, -5 feats, and would mean practically never getting dev.crit (well, at least not a high DC one, and definitely would have to wait for it).
As to how the saves work, basically, you take your base, to which you are entitled to add +20, and then cap out your respective stat for an additional +6.
In the case of fort, for e.g., our naked base is 30, but 5 of it comes from sacred defense (unlike pally grace, CoT sacred counts towards the +20 cap); so to that 30, we are entitled to add another +15, to bring it to the +20 cap:
we get +2 from bard song, add 2 simple fort items (i.e., cloak, ring or boots, for +10 more), that's 42, and div.wrath gets us to cap (alternatively, as against spells, spellcraft does, too, with spellcraft applying towards the saves cap but only insofar as it relates to spells of course); accordingly, w. wrath (or any +3 item will do), our Fort (buffed w. reasonable items): 45, add +2 from a simple endurance potion: 47 (51 w. con. capped, i.e., war boots, etc.).
Do you really think he needs to worry?
As to AB, Nat. 44 +2 Song (46 Effective AB / 57 w. Str. and +5 weapon only (or gmw, not counting any other buffs, not to mention his curse song etc., and he taunts literally at will for +6 AB more). Average melee'r comes in at 45, add str. and a +5 weapon: AB 56.
What might be interesting though, if uniterested in dev.crit, could be a paladin (15-20-25)/Bard (15/16-20-25)/CoT (4-5) -- still would require an alignment change, and no WS/EWS, and much more buff reliant, but at least avoid xp burdens (oh yeah, and get the holy sword, too (but only once/day and don't last all that long though - on worlds where it's enabled, I like my dev.crit, and with a DC 49 ... _________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good [people] to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke, Philosopher and Politician (1729-1797)
Edited By TyrTemplar on 08/25/07 14:38
Quote: Posted 08/25/07 14:09 (GMT) -- TyrTemplar
Do you really think he needs to worry?
Yep, I do. In a Dev Crit world, vs opponents using Dev Crit, I'd worry every single time I'm in a battle if I don't have crit immunity. Each and every hit against you is a potential crit, and every single crit is a forced saving throw. Eventually, you will roll a 1, and if it's even a moderately long battle sequence your chances of dying due to a blown save are extremely high. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
We should make a poll, what's more boring, TyrTemplar's long posts or Endalyor's stupid requests? just kidding, but that was a long boring post Deb.
I agree with avado though, your building won't improve until you start writing builds yourself, I used to play a lot my "cool builds" that I made on the march, I've always been a powerbuilder since I started playing RPGs so I wasn't too bad, but until you start writing down the builds and noticing your own mistakes your builds don't really improve, you repeat the same mistakes; Endalyor is depending too much on us, he just asks for builds and doesn't get feedback to his own building (because there is none to see).
I'd be glad to make feedback on a build by Endalyor, but building for him is losing whatever sense it had at some point. _________________
Quote: Posted 07/28/06 23:16:09 (GMT) -- Big Meph Using the 2 ESF's in a dex based sneak build, to me, just looks like you're teasing your diabetic opponent with extra sugar on your whipcream covered chocolate mudcake.
Quote: Posted 08/25/07 22:38 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Quote: Posted 08/25/07 14:09 (GMT) -- TyrTemplar
Do you really think he needs to worry?
Yep, I do. In a Dev Crit world, vs opponents using Dev Crit, I'd worry every single time I'm in a battle if I don't have crit immunity. Each and every hit against you is a potential crit, and every single crit is a forced saving throw. Eventually, you will roll a 1, and if it's even a moderately long battle sequence your chances of dying due to a blown save are extremely high.
Yep, I agree. When fighting WMs, it's better to consistently hit them, than to rely on AC and yourself rolling high. Unless you're PM, anyways.
Well, terribly sorry and didn't mean to bore, but really, I kinda felt that Endaylor here was being well, just felt the need to speak out (no problem, Thax -- and for the record, I for one enjoy his threads, including all his so-called silly questions, else wouldn't have bothered to pipe up
That said, AB is important always, and bard/cot/ftr have it (sure, could go ftr/bard/wm for more, but then, wouldn't be a lasting bard (and saves, well, let's not even go there
Really though, Nat AB 44, +2 Song: 46 Effective AB (Melee); (+GMW, War Cry, Curse, Emp.Bull's: 61, +6 Taunt: 67 add another +5 div.wrath, or 72 AB ; make that 75 AB with STR gear and self-buffs only. (BioCap: 70, +6 Taunt: 76 AB; bards also come w. self-haste, impr.invis., darkness and so forth.
And as also noted, incl. numerous times by Thax, in pvp everyone goes neutral, so pally smite and holy sword (vs. evil, and anyway short), doesn't really seem to me to be a good option, not to mention dispel woes. Totally up to him, though, as he's the one who must in the end feel comfortable.
Besides, at Dev.Crit DC 49, he's doing his share There being no PMs (he said can't go RDD or PM (else, offensive wise, go Bard/Pal/RDD, or, if defense-oriented instead, PM/Bard w. either BG or RDD -- but that he can't do, and yeah, barring PM, everyone rolls a *1* - (so too do his enemies, right?), but otherwise his fort is high, and barring an auto fail, well, guess that's why they call it Roll-Play as opposed to Role-Play, but maybe that's just me, in which case, totally fine
anyway, said more than enough and already far too much; cheers everyone, and really, all the best: Tyr
** Edit -- hey, that is a good idea, Thax -- would love to see a build by Endaylor (yeah, really, that would be cool, and a jolly good idea, it is -- watcha say, Endaylor? We'd all give you feedback (you know we will!!), and really, I personally have every confidence in you (with the questions you're asking, believe me, you're up to it _________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good [people] to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke, Philosopher and Politician (1729-1797)
I'd be glad to make feedback on a build by Endalyor, but building for him is losing whatever sense it had at some point.
I really don't build A lot of things have been done already, and the server I'm on, people are already building to be effecient killers, while following a guideline, and really all the best builds are already being used, and if you stray from those builds too much, your character is going to suck big time.
I thought about making a ninja like character, or a AA, but then I realized, wait, ninja would probably rely on sneak attack, which may get a weapon master standing still, but with all that hp, I think they'd turn around and dev me, and once they're targeting me, sure I'll be able to dodge a bit, but I doubt I'd be able to keep that up or actually beat him in fair 1 on 1 combat. Sort of the same with AA. They just don't dish out enough damage to take a weapon master. I could maybe run around and shoot, but that would take ages, and by then they'll have a friend Bigby me or they'll catch up with haste eventually.
The weapon masters seem most versitile. When it comes to WMs in PvP, it usually takes a weapon master to kill a weapon master. Anything less and you're down. A dexer WM will kick butt in PvP if built properly, but they just don't really do enough damage for PvM, where as a str based WM pretty much kicks *** in PvM aswell, especially when paired with a caster.
I want something different, without being different enough to get my arse handed to me. The bard Tyr built me is working out pretty well so far, you actually don't see people really using mords in PvP at my server, usually it's just blast you till you die. I'm just hoping with the bard I have, I'll be able to Bard Song, Curse Song, Haste, taunt, and maybe Warcry before I get critted to death.
Quote: Posted 08/25/07 22:38 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Quote: Posted 08/25/07 14:09 (GMT) -- TyrTemplar
Do you really think he needs to worry?
Yep, I do. In a Dev Crit world, vs opponents using Dev Crit, I'd worry every single time I'm in a battle if I don't have crit immunity. Each and every hit against you is a potential crit, and every single crit is a forced saving throw. Eventually, you will roll a 1, and if it's even a moderately long battle sequence your chances of dying due to a blown save are extremely high.
Oh well, you can always pump up your AC so that you are, in facts, crit immune. But Master Din's right, the only safe route is PM or a shape with crit immunity (elemental, undead, construct) _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
Good point Kail. One other route is a hideously high AC, which (assuming you can get it high enough) will also make you crit immune. Not sure if it's feasible without using PM though. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 08/26/07 17:08 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Good point Kail. One other route is a hideously high AC, which (assuming you can get it high enough) will also make you crit immune. Not sure if it's feasible without using PM though.
I guess a lot depends on what gear is available. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
OK, did it 