I am building something I always wanted to try. Str Based Dwarven rogue. Something like Rogue 20/DD10/SD10.
Stats
Str 16 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8
All points thrown into Strength Traps, HIPS, Summon Fiend, Devastating Critical would be the arsenal. Weapon would probably be War hammer. Somehow it goes with the theme.
I probably have too many SD levels but I don't like to just have SD 1 as it is too cheesy. Also, as I have a thing about using traps quite a bit it would be nice to have a summoned magnet for my traps set up.
Any suggestions would be appreciated. _________________ Entropy is a joule thief
I'm by no means an expert, but I'd suggest taking more Dwarven Defender levels. Twenty rogue levels is probably a bit much for a strength based rogue anyway, especially since that many shadowdancer levels would pick up several rogue bonus feats (Defensive Roll, Slippery Mind, and Improved Evasion). I'd try to squeeze in at least 18 DD levels, which would make the build rogue 12/DD 18/SD 10. A 13th level of rogue would provide another rogue bonus feat, but at the expense of three damage reduction and a DD bonus feat. Since the ten levels of SD pick up most of the really useful Rogue Bonus Feats (other than Crippling Strike, which you could take with the Rogue Bonus Feat at Rogue 10), I'd go with the DD level.
I have been thinking along these lines as well. Now I am thinking of Rogue 17/ SD 5 / DD 18. Does anyone know how I should pace my development so that I can get four attacks? _________________ Come on, you sons of b*tches! Do you want to live forever?
Forgive any inaccuracy, I don't have a copy of the game, manual or anything else handy so it's all from rusty memory.
You'll need 10 rogue levels at least to meet the required BAB for DWD, so that means you can use a bare minum of 4 DWD levels pre-epic to hit the required 16 BAB, provided any rogue/SD are multiples of 4.
However, if you want max BAB, which I would recommend if you're going strength based (particularly in PvP), then take 8 levels of DWD with 12 levels of rogue/SD.
Hope this helps.
You need minimum 10 levels of Rogue to get the BAB for Dwarven Defender, so it's pretty easy, if you take 10 Dwarven Defender and 10 Rogue pre-epic you'll reach 17 and you need 16 for 4 APR, you can change it to Rogue8/SD2/DwD10 to get 17, Rogue12/DwD8 to get 17, etc.
Now, I don't get it why you want to take Shadowdancer on a STR based, you can't go for Epic Dodge, and you're spending feats as prerequisites (Dodge, Mobility, Toughness) when you want Devastating Critical? you should go Monk or Fighter if damage is what you want, a Rogue 16 / Fighter 6 / Dwarven Defender 18 is great for a Dev crit tank, if you're not taking EDR III then you should take Dwarven Defender minimum up to 18.
If Shadowdancer can hide is Plain Sight as a STR based then it's freaking powerful alright, I'm not experienced with SDs, I don't play the sneaky style, if it does take it, but any more than 1 level is a waste because you can't take Epic Dodge without that DEX, and you get nothing other than Improved Evasion which Rogue can get too, your Dwarven Defender needs those levels. 10 levels of Dwarven Defender give you only DR 6/- and a bit of HP, which isn't much, the Dwarven Defender class is not powerful unless you invest several levels. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
problems and purpose. Yes, HIPS and pretty good hide/stealth on a str based character is the purpose. Excellent trap setting and UMD makes it have more than a few options.
But the redundancy of rogue and sd levels is something I have to work out. It does seem that one level of SD is really all I need but it seems too cheesy.
Maybe I should be going for Rogue/DD/SD as a high dex. I could have both SC and DR. But attacks would be on the anaemic side at best. Anyhow, this is straying off thread even if it is my thread. _________________ Entropy is a joule thief
Beetle, when I read your first post I wonder why you want DD at all. If a dev critting sneaker is what you want, you need feats. You need feats to buy dev crit and you need feats to improve your stealth skills since you have such a low dex bonus. And if you plan on playing in a dev critting environment, you will need a high fort save. You can get that from feats: general save improving feats and class feats. Rogue/CoT/SD could be the thing for you. _________________ I generally avoid temptation, unless I can't resist it...
Actually the thing I am trying to do is to try a DD which can lay traps. Dev-Crit is really just icing for me. Normally, if traps will be a main part of my attack I prefer to use ranged weapons and SD. Lot's of movement and sneaking.
Using a DD requires a different strategy. But you are right in that it is really a feat starved build. Also, stealth and move silently will never be amazingly high.
But why recommend Champion of Torm? If building a dev-crit sneaker is the primary goal, fighter would probably be a better replacement for DD. But it would be hard to put more points into Charisma with this build. And without that I can't see why Champion of Torm would be worth it. It is true that saves would improved but there are ways around that especially with having more feats from fighter levels. _________________ Entropy is a joule thief
Fighter is better than CoT feat wise, especially if you go beyond 10 lvls. But my point was, just as you point out, that CoT does have better saves (and fighter had already been suggested ). Then again, a Fighter build could have more than 10 levels with a high fort save class pre epic (if fighter heavy is the way you want to go), and access to WS and EWS. _________________ I generally avoid temptation, unless I can't resist it...
Well, personally I believe a Dwarven Defender doesn't need any stealth skills, when I play my Dwarven Defender builds with DR 18/- or higher I want people to me you so I can laugh at their faces when they deal ridiculously low damage (or laugh at the PC, some mobs are too weak), but well, you might need hiding to hit the sneak attacks, Knockdown isn't the best way around.
I don't get it what's so wrong with being cheesy, for example, I always take 1-3 levels of Monk on my Monk builds, yes it's cheesy, but it's also stronger than taking 15 levels and wasting levels other classes could use better. Playing a cheesy character is normally easier, and maybe this isn't true for everybody, but I don't it very fun to get owned all the time with a non-power-cheesy build, I like to win, and if you need to be classified as cheesy to win, well, "I'm still alive and you're not" comes to mind. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 01/21/08 19:58
Quote: Posted 01/21/08 14:51 (GMT) -- Beetlenut
Actually the thing I am trying to do is to try a DD which can lay traps. Dev-Crit is really just icing for me. Normally, if traps will be a main part of my attack I prefer to use ranged weapons and SD. Lot's of movement and sneaking.
Well, if this is the case, perhaps you should try a Paladin 15 DD 22 Rogue 3. You can get Divine Shield/Might, Pally's +8 Ab buffs and Holy Sword, rogue skill dumps for tumble, umd, and set traps, and high enough DD to have decent DR. Dev Crit might be a tight squeeze to fit in there, but the 3 DD epic bonus feats might help clear a little room for that. Granted, you can't HIPS, but you might have enough skill points for corner sneaking.
Another possibility. If you're dead set on HIPS, but can live without Dev, make a Pally 17 DD 22 Sdd 1. And yes, I know you think the 1 Sdd is cheesy, but bear with me. Make it a dex build, and on level 39, cross-class set trap, and take Epic Skill Focus in it. With at least a +14 Dex modifier, you can set epic traps outside of combat with no chance of failure: 21 (ranks) +10 (ESF) +14 (Dex) +1 (prayer) =46 +20 (take 20 out of combat) = 66, which is 1 more than the DC for epic traps.
With that build you can also take advantage of the Holy Sword/HIPS combination by whacking people with true seeing until HS dispels it, and then spam HIPS on them. That works better if you have sneak attack damage to back it up, but it can still be effective without it. Of course, I'm assuming you mean for this to be a PvP build, right?
Anyhow, only problem I can see with taking the Sdd route over Rogue is the lack of UMD. I'd personally hesitate to take a build into PvP without the ability to see its opponents somehow, unless it was a team fight or something, where someone could provide see invis or true seeing for you.
). Then again, a Fighter build could have more than 10 levels with a high fort save class pre epic (if fighter heavy is the way you want to go), and access to WS and EWS.