I experiment with a new Ranger /Assassin /Shadowdancer build, a dex based elf with G dex X and ending dex at 38. The lvl distribution will be somewhere near Ranger10-12 /Assassin26-28 /Shadowdancer1-2. I thought this was "done to death", and was a bit surprised when the search ended with only 3 builds within or near that lvl range, one of which was a str build.
The character will deliver sneaks and DA from stealth, darkness, invisibility and knockdown and can HIPS away at will. I wonder if there is any reason to take discipline in such a build. The naked AC will be around 32. If I take a Ranger lvl at 40 and get 43 ranks, the effective discipline will only be 44 (str 12). So maybe I will have to drop a G dex feat to take ESF discipline and get it up to 54. Doing so means I must take at least one more Ranger lvl for skilldumps and playability. I prefer 2 lvls of Shadowdancer for evasion.
Dropping discipline altogether let me go with 9 or 10 Ranger lvls (9 for full dual wield and 10 for an epic bonus feat) and leaving the rest of the epic lvls for Assassin and a higher DA DC.
Any input is welcome.
I have a build I use that is Ranger 10/Assassin 28/SD 2. It is DEX based as well, I never bothered with posting it though, I thought there were one or two similar to it. I didnt take any Discipline with the build. I used the level 10 Ranger at level 21 in the build and took Epic Prowess and Epic Weapon Focus right off the bat. I used my Epic Feats a little bit different as well and ended up with a DEX of 34. All that being said, I'm not sure if taking ESF: Discipline would be worth it or not. All I can say is I chose to avoid it when I made my build.
If AC > Discipline then don't bother with Disc. If AC < Disc, then it is worth it.
Calculate your AC under best case and worst case scenarios.
Thanks for the replies. The AC will be higher than the skill im most cases, even with the ESF. The best thing would be to compare the alternatives against KD and disarm spammers. Do you know any trainers that can spawn some tough ones?
I found a good KD spammer!
I took the "Pretty good Character Creator / Customizer" mod by styzygy and hohos and went to the arena area and spawned the fighter class build.
There I tested a build with discipline skill = 43 + 1 from str. It had no ESF. I used it naked (AC 32) and added crafted items with discipline skill bonus so I could test what different skill lvls could do. A +10 item (giving the same bonus as ESF) only made a slight difference. The KD attempts were resisted most of the time when I used a +20 item and the discipline was 64.
I got the same effect when I equipped the char with +5 items (including a small shield) and capped dex so the AC reached 64. The only difference was that with the high AC my char did not get hit that much
The high AC had the same effect on the build with no discipline skill.
So against this opponent maxed discipline and ESF alone wouldn't be enough to resist most KD attempts. But a high enough AC would help both builds.
I guess this confirms what you stated in your post Bromium.
A good rule for an assassin always this. Is your DC high enough to paralyze on first hit or is it 2 low to paralyze or enemy. If it is, then disc is not of your concern. You will be able to HIPS out of every situation even before a meleer will get you in range for a KD.
The rule for me is this: If AC is > Discipline + 20, then you will never resist a KD that hits you (except for a possible natural 20 hit from a low AB enemy, which is rare enough not to worry about).
For most high-dex builds, this is the case (the only exception would be in a very low-magic world, usually less than +5 maximum).
So, unless you plan to play in a low-magic environment (like +3 max on armor/rings/amulets), I would probably skip discipline. With high AC and Epic Dodge and Improved Invis and HiPS, you won't be hit with many KDs in the first place.
TM
Thanks for the feedback!
Quote: Posted 03/10/08 12:37 (GMT) -- Saints of Apocalypse
A good rule for an assassin always this. Is your DC high enough to paralyze on first hit or is it 2 low to paralyze or enemy. If it is, then disc is not of your concern. You will be able to HIPS out of every situation even before a meleer will get you in range for a KD.
As long as you can follow the death attack routine and your DA DC and Hide skill is high enough, this works fine most of the time.
The rule for me is this: If AC is > Discipline + 20, then you will never resist a KD that hits you (except for a possible natural 20 hit from a low AB enemy, which is rare enough not to worry about).
For most high-dex builds, this is the case (the only exception would be in a very low-magic world, usually less than +5 maximum).
Good point!
Quote: So, unless you plan to play in a low-magic environment (like +3 max on armor/rings/amulets), I would probably skip discipline. With high AC and Epic Dodge and Improved Invis and HiPS, you won't be hit with many KDs in the first place.
TM
With only 2 lvls in SD I won't qualify for Epic dodge. But you are right, I don't get hit much If I spam HIPS. _________________ I generally avoid temptation, unless I can't resist it...
A good rule for an assassin always this. Is your DC high enough to paralyze on first hit or is it 2 low to paralyze or enemy. If it is, then disc is not of your concern. You will be able to HIPS out of every situation even before a meleer will get you in range for a KD.
The rule for me is this: