I've been playing such builds numerous times, and it's highly playable, It's often the build I use to go with on new servers, taking the Cleric 9/Fighter 1 to access level 5 spells, then take some levels in DwD after that getting to level 20 as Cleric12/Fighter1/DwD7. That's a PvM build used to scout out new servers. I've played a Cleric14/CoT4/DwD22 build on a server with bonus spellslot items once, but felt it became somewhat lacking. Sorry for all the blabbering so far, I'm just being me.
I'd like some discussion on this combo. Server: No spell- or feat changes except no dev-crit. Mid-magic server(Base upon +5 items, and +6 to stats)
I'd prefer it to be a melee-buffer build, but would look at caster-builds too, of course. Undispellable is nice, but not necessary. EDR is nice, but not necessary.
Race; use human, halfling, elf or whatever you want, as long as you can take Dwarven Defender.
Third class completely open, weird rp-choices are welcome too.
I'm thinking Monk here, could be nice especially for a WIS-build. Fighter and CoT are obvious choices. A tumble-Class also.
Ideally, high STR for AB, enough CON to get EDR (and enough feats. ) enough WIS to access the highest spell-level availible to the Cleric lvl you stop at. Oh yeah, I'm asking a lot. But that's ideally, none of that is necessary. I just want to see what you guys think is effective based on the request in bold.
I'm not gonna make any of my thoughts as of yet, since I want suggestions and builds not coloured by my thoughts. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
How about no third class at all? Here's my Divine Defender (Cleric 26 / Dwarven Defender 14). _________________ "Never laugh in the face of a live dragon." - Bilbo Baggins
Perhaps a Cleric 20/DD 10/CoT 10?
Melee-Buffer: Yes.
Undispellable: No; at 20 levels he can be dispelled, though your buffs are all nice to haves, not required to survive. He can last quite well without them.
EDR: He has EDR 3 on top of his DD DR; Stoneskin on top of it, and 50% concealment (if undispelled) to confound your enemies even further (depending of course on the domains you chose)
His strength doesn't really pick up until the end, but I figured that was better than getting EDR later on. As always season to taste
Cleric(20), Dwarven Defender(10), Champion of Torm(10)
Level up: 01: Cleric(1): Toughness, Domain Earth, Domain Trickery 02: Cleric(2) 03: Cleric(3): Extend Spell 04: Cleric(4): WIS+1, (WIS=15) 05: Cleric(5) 06: Cleric(6): Blind Fight 07: Cleric(7) 08: Cleric(8): WIS+1, (WIS=16) 09: Cleric(9): Dodge 10: Cleric(10) 11: Dwarven Defender(1): {Defensive Stance} 12: Dwarven Defender(2): CON+1, Weapon Focus: Battleaxe, {Defensive Awareness I}, (CON=17) 13: Dwarven Defender(3) 14: Dwarven Defender(4) 15: Dwarven Defender(5): Power Attack* 16: Dwarven Defender(6): CON+1, (CON=18) 17: Dwarven Defender(7) 18: Dwarven Defender(8): Expertise* 19: Dwarven Defender(9) 20: Dwarven Defender(10): WIS+1, (WIS=17) 21: Cleric(11): Great Constitution I, (CON=19) 22: Champion of Torm(1) 23: Champion of Torm(2): Epic Weapon Focus: Battleaxe 24: Cleric(12): WIS+1, Great Constitution II, (CON=20), (WIS=18) 25: Cleric(13) 26: Cleric(14) 27: Cleric(15): Great Constitution III, (CON=21) 28: Cleric(16): WIS+1, (WIS=19) 29: Cleric(17) 30: Champion of Torm(3): Epic Damage Reduction I, {Smite Evil} 31: Champion of Torm(4): Epic Damage Reduction II 32: Champion of Torm(5): CON+1, (CON=22) 33: Champion of Torm(6): Epic Damage Reduction III, Great Wisdom I*, (WIS=20) 34: Cleric(18) 35: Cleric(19) 36: Champion of Torm(7): STR+1, Great Strength I, (STR=16) 37: Champion of Torm(8): Epic Prowess 38: Champion of Torm(9) 39: Champion of Torm(10): Great Strength II, Armor Skin*, (STR=17) 40: Cleric(20): STR+1, (STR=18)
* Feats can be changed for whatever you like. _________________ -4SakN
The Moonshae Isles - Forgotten Realms A Role Play, Low Magic world
A quick note. I'm going to London in a few hours and have to pack some, but I'll be back in this thread after the weekend.
Stoneskin is damage Reduction and doesn't stack with DR from Barb, DwD or EDR. So once you pass 10 points in DR it does nothing. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
I meant the damage absorbing portion actually, not the DR; as in extending your combat ability by absorbing the first 100 points you would have taken. _________________ -4SakN
The Moonshae Isles - Forgotten Realms A Role Play, Low Magic world
Edited By 4SakN on 04/24/08 13:40
Please tell me these are for PvM. Not to offend, but it hurts my eyes to see no tumble class builds.
Also, your server lets races other than Dwarves become DWARVEN Defenders? Sounds kinda counter-intuitive, but stranger things have happened, I guess.
Anyhow, Cleric DD builds abound, as you're right, they are a good combination. They're all the better with a 3rd class that has TUMBLE, however.
23 Cleric 14 DwD 3 Rogue - Str or Dex. Fairly classic PvP build. I like Str based with Dwarven Waraxe, personally.
16 Cleric 6 Monk 18 DwD (or 20 6 14) - makes for an ok dual kama.
21 Cleric 14 DwD 5 Harper Scout - use the 2 HS feats for either Great Cha to boost Divine Shield/Might , or ESF in Concentration (to resist Taunts and AoO while casting) and Discipline. Plus, you get Tumble and Harper potions (neato!). Not a lot of feats to go around in pre-epic, though.
24 Cleric 14 DwD 2 Assassin (or 28 10 2) - Same as the rogue one above, for the most part, only more evil! Str or Dex.
20 Cleric 18 DwD 2 Shadowdancer (or 20 10 10 for Epic Dodge)- Dex based, Hips, handaxe, whip (!), or kukri works nice. Need high Int for enough MS, Hide, and Tumble to cross-class for Sdd.
Maybe one of those will work for you. Either way, DwD's are fun. Enjoy!
Quote: Posted 04/24/08 16:38 (GMT) -- Hiwatt
Also, your server lets races other than Dwarves become DWARVEN Defenders? Sounds kinda counter-intuitive, but stranger things have happened, I guess.
I used my Spot skill and think I've detected a hint of sarcasm in Grims post when it comes to available races to use.
Quote: Posted 04/24/08 17:44 (GMT) -- galelabriel
Quote: Posted 04/24/08 16:38 (GMT) -- Hiwatt
Also, your server lets races other than Dwarves become DWARVEN Defenders? Sounds kinda counter-intuitive, but stranger things have happened, I guess.
I used my Spot skill and think I've detected a hint of sarcasm in Grims post when it comes to available races to use.
Ah, ok. I usually max out Listen, personally. No wonder I didn't catch that
If you're not worried about being dispelled, here's what occurs to me at first glance: CLC 18/DwD 18/FTR 4. I've not worked out a levelling scheme, but if you go with only 1 FTR level pre-epic, you'll end up with:
8 pre-epic feats: I'd take Extend Spell as one of them. Weapon Focus. Whatever else you fancy (Toughness and Dodge needed for DwD though).
11 epic feats (7 general, 2 FTR bonus feats, and 2 DwD bonus feats). Take 3 EDR feats, Armor Skin, and Epic Prowess (all can be taken as bonus feats, but one will have to be as a general feat). Epic Weapon Focus, and the remaining 5 as GRT STR/CON/WIS.
Stats are a bit tough:
STR 14 (add 6) DEX 14 CON 18 (add 4) INT 10 WIS 14 (add 5) CHA 6
End with:
STR 20 DEX 14 CON 22 INT 10 WIS 19 CHA 6
Raise WIS only when needed to access the next level of spells. You can choose to raise STR early and delay the DR or raise CON early and delay the STR boost. I'd probably choose the latter, since you can augment STR/damage/AB with spells.
Use your meagre skill points for Discipline and cross-class Tumble.
You'll end with level 9 spells (lots of slots to be used for metamagicked buffs), 21/- DR, quite a lot of HPs, and even though your raw AB will be low, you can easily augment both AB and damage with your Cleric spells. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Edited By Cinnabar Din on 04/24/08 19:49
Quote: Posted 04/24/08 12:55 (GMT) -- 4SakN
Perhaps a Cleric 20/DD 10/CoT 10? [/snip] * Feats can be changed for whatever you like.
How long did it take you put that level-up guide together? I've spent a few hours on a single Cleric/CoT/Rogue build, and I still don't have all of the calculations (AB, AC, etc). Are you using a program to do that?
There's an excel program on the vault. I can't recall what it's called (Character Build Calculator?), but it's done by Kamiryn. That post looks similar to that program's output.
I agree with Cin. If you using Dwarven Defender I usually like to have atleast 22 levels. Adding Cleric though means 18 levels as well. That leaves 4 levels to play with. Fighter, Rogue, Monk are all possibilties depending on if you want Skill dumps or WS/EWS and feats.
Quote: Posted 04/24/08 21:18 (GMT) -- galelabriel
I agree with Cin. If you using Dwarven Defender I usually like to have atleast 22 levels. Adding Cleric though means 18 levels as well. That leaves 4 levels to play with. Fighter, Rogue, Monk are all possibilties depending on if you want Skill dumps or WS/EWS and feats.
Not necessarily a done deal on the Cleric thing there, with requiring 18 levels. Sometimes 19 wis is just a bit too hard to fit into a melee build without serious sacrifices.
Maybe a Cleric 16 DwD 22 Assassin 2? No 9th level spells, and an easy dispel, but you can fit Dev in there pretty easy, and have Tumble and UMD, maybe even epic traps (out of combat) if you can fit in ESF and a late skill dump at level 39. End up with 54 set trap, assuming 1 point from Dex and 1 from Prayer, which is plenty for that.
And, if could only fit 16 Wis in there (which is likely, if you're looking to add Dev), take Healing and Animal domains, so your True Seeings are 3rd level, and Heals are 5th, and use UMD for Imp Invis scrolls.
Dev? If you mean Dev Crit, Grimnir said no dev crit in his original post. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!! yeah, picking race on a Dwarven Defender is so difficult.
Well, I've toyed with the Dwarven Defender a lot, one of my favorite classes, I do believe I'm the guy with most DwD builds on the forum (darn, I need the builds searcher to get updated to show that), and this one's my strongest one by far: Lethal Kama (Cleric 20 / Dwarven Defender 18 / Monk 2) so I vouch for taking Monk. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 04/25/08 02:15
Okay, here Iam, rocking like a hurricane.
Quote: Posted 04/24/08 13:40 (GMT) -- 4SakN
I meant the damage absorbing portion actually, not the DR; as in extending your combat ability by absorbing the first 100 points you would have taken.
I understood that, but what I was trying to say is that stoneskin does not absorb anything once your DR is higher than 10/- the only thing it does is make you look very gray. I've played plenty of DD's. Other than that, it's a fairly good build actually.
Quote: Posted 04/24/08 16:38 (GMT) -- Hiwatt
21 Cleric 14 DwD 5 Harper Scout - use the 2 HS feats for either Great Cha to boost Divine Shield/Might , or ESF in Concentration (to resist Taunts and AoO while casting) and Discipline. Plus, you get Tumble and Harper potions (neato!). Not a lot of feats to go around in pre-epic, though.
Well. Since a DwD/Cleric already needs CON, WIS, DEX and in this case STR, I wouldn't also put CHA in the soup. Especially since it costs a bunch being Dwarf! Your other combos are worth a closer look, thank you. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Quote: Posted 04/24/08 19:48 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
If you're not worried about being dispelled, here's what occurs to me at first glance: CLC 18/DwD 18/FTR 4. I've not worked out a levelling scheme, but if you go with only 1 FTR level pre-epic, you'll end up with:
.
Yeah, had one of those, made almost exactly like that. Except I wanted Concentration originally. If not needed, then lower starting INT to 10 and raise starting WIS or STR by 1 point to even out CON score to 22.
Normal AC for a FP+Tower -4 for tumble, + 4 in stance. AB 36 buffed to almost 70(69 with bulls+Stance, 70 with empowered Bulls.) when needed is okay right?. Good damage buffed. 640 Hitpoints coupled with Def Stance +80 hp's, DR 21/- and improved Invis gives it a good stayer ability. DR comes late in my build, but is easily postponed by waiting for your AB instead, which is probably better. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
A take on a caster, in which I decided to add Monk, to get nice use of high WIS.
Really good AC, especially buffed and with high Wis+Dex from items and spells. DC on Implosion=37 unbuffed, 43 Max. Otherwise there is spells from Magic domain to get by, mostly Ice Storm. Good party buffer.
No room for Discipline as is, but you can drop 2 points of STR for it. It will make pre-epic a bit more pain though. So it would be really swell if immune to KD items exist where one wants to play this. The AC combined with 632 hitpoints along with 21/- DR and ImpInvis should also here make you last a while. It will be a hard-to-kill build with decent spellpower, and even slightly buffed it can handle mobs and weaker enemies in melee quite decent. Or just put up a Blade barrier.
For a melee version with dual kamas, see Thaxs build earlier in the thread. That one's a killer.
You can defend switching 4 DwDs for 4 Cleric, making you close to undispellable and raising your penetration to a needed level. You'll 'only' loose 3/- DR and 16 hitpoints in the process.
BF and Empower can maybe be switched pre-epic for Greater penetration also, giving you a penetration of 28, which is mostly sufficient.
This build got decent saves too.
*edit* Got 7 skillpoints to spare. 5 to spellcraft maybe, and perhaps cross-class a "trickery" skill. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Edited By Grimnir77 on 04/28/08 10:16
Quote: Posted 04/28/08 09:06 (GMT) -- Grimnir77
Okay, here Iam, rocking like a hurricane.
Quote: Posted 04/24/08 13:40 (GMT) -- 4SakN
I meant the damage absorbing portion actually, not the DR; as in extending your combat ability by absorbing the first 100 points you would have taken.
I understood that, but what I was trying to say is that stoneskin does not absorb anything once your DR is higher than 10/- the only thing it does is make you look very gray. I've played plenty of DD's. Other than that, it's a fairly good build actually.
Aah I get you. I did not know that actually; thanks for the info! I would certainly say take a different domain then, as that makes earth near useless; Probably Travel for haste is a good choice then. Adding +4 AC and 50% concealment would make it quite a strong warrior still.
Glad you liked the build. I am sure it could use a little tweaking but it is pretty solid overall _________________ -4SakN
The Moonshae Isles - Forgotten Realms A Role Play, Low Magic world
(depending of course on the domains you chose)
If you're not worried about being dispelled, here's what occurs to me at first glance: CLC 18/DwD 18/FTR 4. I've not worked out a levelling scheme, but if you go with only 1 FTR level pre-epic, you'll end up with: