This is my first attempt at a Cleric build. I'm still learning about this class, so I'm happy to hear any criticisms. It was a tough choice between Monk/Rogue, CoT/Fighter. In the end, I didn't want any XP penalties, so I went with CoT, and I wanted UMD & Tumble, so Rogue it was.
This character is intended to be a Melee Cleric who can also sling a good number of spells around. Buff spells are the focus, crowd softeners second, and the occasional Harm, Destruction and Slay Living for added fun.
This Cleric should be welcome in any non-evil party, no matter the class composition. Turn Undead isn’t that important because you can just bash them or hit them with other spells. Therefore, Charisma is kept at 10 (except for buffs). Sure, Battle Mastery won't last very long, but it's not worth the added ability points.
He's intended to wear full plate, tower shield, and melee weapon.
Mr. Clean, the "All-Purpose" Cleric
Human Cleric(26), CoT(12), Rogue(2) Any Good
PvM Playable 1-40 No XP Penalties
Trickery & War Domains
Stats:
STR 16 (25) DEX 8 CON 14 WIS 15 (20) INT 12 CHA 10
INT 14, CHA 8. +43 skillpoints vs a slightly better TU is a no brainer.
CoT 10, Rogue 4 and start out as a rogue for more skillpoints, not to say to have access to basic rogue skills from the start.
I'd do without CC/ICC, use Defensive Casting instead when necessary. SF: Necromancy is a waste. Actually even SF/GSF: Evocation are not that useful since you ain't a caster type and your WIS is low. That frees up 3 feat slots preepic with which to pick up preepic feats, guess, preepic. That in turns frees up 3 epic feat slots (plus 2 from dropping ICC and GSF: Evo) for a total of 5 feat slots which can be used for 4 Great STR and EP. Or actually 3 Great STR (to end with an even score, that odd score drives me nuts), EP and something else, like ESF: Discipline.
Cleric 16/Rogue 2/CoT 2 preepic for +15 BAB. With all these changes you should reach 38 AB unbuffed, and you get +2 to Dev Crit DC (39 unbuffed at lvl 40)
Heck, you are missing BF! Drop toughness (which you moved preepic) for it. BF is priceless, 40 HPs are not worth it at all. I could see myself dropping Empower spell for scribe scroll to have my own reserve of heal scrolls, among the rest.
BTW, alignment just needs to be any non evil _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
INT 14, CHA 8. +43 skillpoints vs a slightly better TU is a no brainer.
Yeah, it's funny you mention that. My first draft had that config, but I changed it at the last minute thinking it would be a bit better for Battle Mastery and other CHA-affected effects. I also had Improved KD which I had to drop, so I'll have to rethink that.
Quote: CoT 10, Rogue 4 and start out as a rogue for more skillpoints, not to say to have access to basic rogue skills from the start.
Hmm, yeah duh, why didn't I start as rogue? I'll change that. I'm not sure that the Rogue 4 is better than the CoT 12, though. Sacred Defense gives you +6 to all saves (1 / 2 levels). I'd give up Sneak Attack 2d6 and I'm already swimming in skill points. I'm not sure what else I'd spend them on after maxing Disc, Conc, Spellcraft, Tumble, and UMD. Maybe Persuade....
Quote: I'd do without CC/ICC, use Defensive Casting instead when necessary. SF: Necromancy is a waste. Actually even SF/GSF: Evocation are not that useful since you ain't a caster type and your WIS is low. That frees up 3 feat slots preepic with which to pick up preepic feats, guess, preepic. That in turns frees up 3 epic feat slots (plus 2 from dropping ICC and GSF: Evo) for a total of 5 feat slots which can be used for 4 Great STR and EP. Or actually 3 Great STR (to end with an even score, that odd score drives me nuts), EP and something else, like ESF: Discipline.
Hmm, so this is getting to the heart of my problem. Is it really possible to make a balanced (melee/caster) cleric, then? Or does it water both down so much that you're really not effective past a certain level? See, I thought the CC and ICC were pretty nice for eliminating Attacks of Opportunity when casting in crowds, because I thought I'd be doing that from time to time. The SF and GSF had to DC, right? Is your point that at those levels the monsters will have saves so much higher than my DC that the SF and GSF won't matter?
Is EP "Epic Prowess"?
Quote: Cleric 16/Rogue 2/CoT 2 preepic for +15 BAB. With all these changes you should reach 38 AB unbuffed, and you get +2 to Dev Crit DC (39 unbuffed at lvl 40)
Hmm, but then I'd lose lvl 9 spells, which would kind of suck. Still, if you're saying my Implosions won't be hitting due to low DC, then I guess it doesn't matter. :-/
Quote: Heck, you are missing BF! Drop toughness (which you moved preepic) for it. BF is priceless, 40 HPs are not worth it at all. I could see myself dropping Empower spell for scribe scroll to have my own reserve of heal scrolls, among the rest.
Ah, thanks. I had BF in there, then decided the 40 HPs were better, but that's because I've never used BF before and didn't realize how valuable it is. Think I should squeeze that in pre-epic?
Quote: BTW, alignment just needs to be any non evil
Ah. I misread the description. Thanks again. _________________ "Drows be fatty." ~ Deekin, Hordes of the Underdark
INT 14, CHA 8. +43 skillpoints vs a slightly better TU is a no brainer.
Yeah, it's funny you mention that. My first draft had that config, but I changed it at the last minute thinking it would be a bit better for Battle Mastery and other CHA-affected effects.
+1 round to battle mastery is really not worth it. Besides, War domain i susually not taken because of battl emastery, but rather for the domain spells.
Quote: I also had Improved KD which I had to drop, so I'll have to rethink that.
A medium sized subject can do without IKD in my experience.
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Quote: CoT 10, Rogue 4 and start out as a rogue for more skillpoints, not to say to have access to basic rogue skills from the start.
Hmm, yeah duh, why didn't I start as rogue? I'll change that. I'm not sure that the Rogue 4 is better than the CoT 12, though. Sacred Defense gives you +6 to all saves (1 / 2 levels). I'd give up Sneak Attack 2d6 and I'm already swimming in skill points. I'm not sure what else I'd spend them on after maxing Disc, Conc, Spellcraft, Tumble, and UMD. Maybe Persuade....
Trap skills, Search, Open Lock. Traps alone add a lot of versatility to any build. Of course, that's assuming they are available. Swimming in skill points is a funny expression to me, being that you look skill starved to my eyes (no offense meant, almost everything looks skill starved to my eyes). IMO, +1 to saves i snot worth the extra skillpoints and the extra skill dumps which will make th echarcater progression smoother which is th emain point of adding more rogue lvls (extra skills is a secondary one).
Quote: Hmm, so this is getting to the heart of my problem. Is it really possible to make a balanced (melee/caster) cleric, then? Or does it water both down so much that you're really not effective past a certain level?
The point is that a caster cleric excels at casting but is nonetheless a force to be reckoned with in melee and a battle cleric excels at melee and has spells useful for taking care of mobs (making a battle cleric an excellent spellsword... THE spellsword probably). Finding a middle ground is tricky. I mean, the cleric is already a "balanced" class (not with respect to other classes of course )
In your case you have to low a WIS and too few extra feat to go there. For example, you are missing spell penetration. Also, if you want to focus in a school I suggest to pick just evo with a cleric. Cleric 29/CoT 10/Rogue 1 or Cleric 29/CoT 8/Rogue 3 could work better in that sense (with the SP feat you'll be autopenetrating 32 SR), or even your split if you forego Dev Crit and pump your WIS higher together with SF/GSF/ESF: Evo. I should give a closer look at the possibility to build something like that. As it stands it looks to me as a battle cleric which is jimping his battle prowess to gain marginal caster's advantages.
Quote: See, I thought the CC and ICC were pretty nice for eliminating Attacks of Opportunity when casting in crowds, because I thought I'd be doing that from time to time.
They are, but Defensive Casting comes for free and by the time you get ICC you'll be always passing your def casting concentration check. Since you have no expertise/imp exp, def casting will substitute ICC.
Quote: The SF and GSF had to DC, right? Is your point that at those levels the monsters will have saves so much higher than my DC that the SF and GSF won't matter?
That's environment dependant, but I think that your DCs will be enough to kill mobs even without SF feats (yes they add to DC) and not enough to really impress bosses even with them since you are not a dedicated caster. So, you don't lose much by dropping them.
Quote: Is EP "Epic Prowess"?
Yup, standard acronym for it
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Quote: Cleric 16/Rogue 2/CoT 2 preepic for +15 BAB. With all these changes you should reach 38 AB unbuffed, and you get +2 to Dev Crit DC (39 unbuffed at lvl 40)
Hmm, but then I'd lose lvl 9 spells, which would kind of suck. Still, if you're saying my Implosions won't be hitting due to low DC, then I guess it doesn't matter. :-/
You "lose" lvl 9 spell preepic only. If you feel the wait is not worth +1 AB then do otherwise.
Quote: Ah, thanks. I had BF in there, then decided the 40 HPs were better, but that's because I've never used BF before and didn't realize how valuable it is. Think I should squeeze that in pre-epic?
I do and not late preepic either (by 6th lvl say). It will immensely help fighting concealed enemies (pesky shadows for example).
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Quote: BTW, alignment just needs to be any non evil
Ah. I misread the description. Thanks again.
No worries, just a minor detail. But now you know you can build a CoT/PM (one is non evil, the other non good and both meet well on neutral grounds). _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 04/26/08 13:25
Ok, with your advice in mind, here's another draft. I had to make a choice between Persuade, Search, Disable/Set Traps. I decided any situation that I could set traps I could just bash things, and I could use summons or my tankness to disable traps. It's nice to find secret doors, though, and I do like to persuade people for more gold and XP.
Blind Fight Power Attack Weapon Focus Extend Spell Knockdown Cleave Toughness Empower Spell Great Cleave Epic Weapon Focus Improved Critical Great STR I Great STR II Armor Skin Great STR III Overwhelming Critical Great WIS I Epic Prowess Devastating Critical Great WIS II Epic Skill Focus: Disc Epic Toughness I _________________ "Drows be fatty." ~ Deekin, Hordes of the Underdark
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