On Badlands 3129 Time Stop is nerfed, making it a fairly reasonable spell, as opposed to an utterly ridiculous one. It's set for 1d4+2 seconds, and a DC 60 Will save to either resist, or for the caster to melee. It does not stop the whole server. It has a large AoE. It ignores SR.
The idea here, is to make a build that can cast Time Stop, have a very good chance to consistently make the DC 60 Will save, and then melee against the people caught in it who presumably can't make the Will save.
The build would preferrably be a dual kama, with max apr, since 3-6 (1d4+2) seconds is 1-2 of the 3 melee flurries in each round, and with max apr you get 4 attacks in the first flurry, using flurry of blows (that's a lot of flurries!). The idea being, to get as many attacks on your opponents as possible during each Time Stop, since you probably will have between 6 and 10 at most to cast each rest.
Assume that you can craft gear for +12 to 5 of your ability scores comfortably. 2 rings will add a total of +10 to 2 of your saves, and the best Will save on a helm is +3.
You will want a high Discipline score as well, so Epic Skill Focus Discipline is a MUST. Disarmers abound, and Bigby's Grasping Hand rolls off of Discipline, and the possibility of being caught and pick pocketed or disarmed is something you would want to avoid.
I already have a build that can regularly hit the DC and melee, and another in the works, but I'd be interested to see what some of you guys (or gals?) come up with for a Time Stop meleer.
Feel free to ask if you need more info, or if I left anything out that might help.
Seems a tough one to me. You'll need high BAB or Cleric Divine Power for that number of attacks.
Monk/CoT/Wizard should accomplish it, I think, so can possibly Monk/Cleric/Wiz.
Actually, Sorcerer probably makes a better TS'er in this case.
Sorcerer or Wizard 18+ is set in stone, so is Monk-class. The third class must be CoT or Cleric, I presume.
Interesting challenge though. I'll have a closer look tomorrow when I have enough time.
Hmm, Paladin pops up in my head too in the sorcerer combo.... _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
I have a Cleric/Monk/Wizard build, here, it's a cool build already with two kamas, drop something for your Epic Spell Focus Discipline and done, the spare skillpoints for Discipline are there and you can take it with the Monk level. Buffed Will is going to reach 49 with the items you described (30 +13 rings and helm, +6 capped WIS), plus Spellcraft bonus for saves vs spells you can get your effective save to 64, just cap INT too. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
I have a Cleric/Monk/Wizard build, here, it's a cool build already with two kamas, drop something for your Epic Spell Focus Discipline and done, the spare skillpoints for Discipline are there and you can take it with the Monk level. Buffed Will is going to reach 49 with the items you described (30 +13 rings and helm, +6 capped WIS), plus Spellcraft bonus for saves vs spells you can get your effective save to 64, just cap INT too.
Nice build, and good suggestion, but sadly, Spellcraft doesn't apply to the Will save
If it did, it would be much easier to hit the DC, though.
edit: It is kind of a tough one to puzzle out too, because you want to hit 16ab pre-epic to max attacks, yet still get as much will save pre-epic as you can. The two don't necessarily mesh that well together.
Edited By Hiwatt on 04/28/08 15:24
Spellcraft doesn't apply? why the hell no if it's a spell!? Now that makes it hard.
Clerics don't need 16 BAB pre-epic, you just cast Divine Power and you get temporary max BAB, and it adds to your APR.
60 Will without Spellcraft is a tough one, I'd throw away the Monk and make a Sorcerer 21 / Paladin 17 / Blackguard 2, if you can make the Alignment shift, that build gets very good saves. Sorcerer / Paladin / Champion of Torm works too but Blackguard is better. _________________
Quote: Posted 07/28/06 23:16:09 (GMT) -- Big Meph Using the 2 ESF's in a dex based sneak build, to me, just looks like you're teasing your diabetic opponent with extra sugar on your whipcream covered chocolate mudcake.
Spellcraft doesn't apply? why the hell no if it's a spell!? Now that makes it hard.
Clerics don't need 16 BAB pre-epic, you just cast Divine Power and you get temporary max BAB, and it adds to your APR.
60 Will without Spellcraft is a tough one, I'd throw away the Monk and make a Sorcerer 21 / Paladin 17 / Blackguard 2, if you can make the Alignment shift, that build gets very good saves. Sorcerer / Paladin / Champion of Torm works too but Blackguard is better.
Not to make it any tougher on you, but Divine Power is disabled on the Badlands to balance Clerics against other classes. Alignment shifts are a no-no, too. Keep in mind, though, you don't necessarily have to hit the 60 DC, so much as get within 5 or so of it, to have a reasonable chance for meleeing most of the time.
It's a pickle though, no doubt about it.
Not to make it any tougher, yeah right.
I know you don't need 60, you actually need no more than 58 since rolling a 1 fails automatically.
Hmmm, the other usual high saves build I play is a Druid shifter, but you can't cast Time Stop while shifted so it's just as useless...
Okay then let's count and do it correctly, taking 3 classes that have Will as their high save you can get a base save of 16 pre-epic (16/2/2 spread), add +10 in epics, +6 from Iron Will and Epic Will and you'd end with a 32 base Will save, suppose you have only 14 WIS and capped to 26 your Will raises up to 40, +13 from your items you can get 53, it's not bad.
Champion of Torm actually doesn't has Will as its high save, and since you'll use the epic levels on the caster class then there's no real point in taking Champion of Torm. For high Will save there's Sorcerer, Monk, Cleric, Harper Scout, Druid, Bard, Dwarven Defender, Red Dragon Disciple, Wizard, Pale Master...
You could take Monk / Sorcerer / Red Dragon Disciple, it's a nice combination and all, but you want more BAB for APR right? if Divine Power doesn't work I have another idea.
One way is to take Dwarven Defender, it's the only high BAB class that has Will as high save, so it allows you to get the 53 Will the way I wrote it up there. Too bad Defensive Stance won't work while casting, that's a wasted +2.
Another choice is to take a route low on Paladin levels, only for Divine Grace and BAB, so you don't lose too much on your base saves. Let me count, the best spread is Monk 8 / Paladin 10 / Sorcerer 2 pre-epic for 12 base Will, that's 4 points below the best save so it would reach 49 Will save with 14 WIS, plus your bonus from Charisma, which has to be at least 19 to cast Time Stop, cap it and your Will save gets to 59, done. Actually, I think it's best to leave it at 58, so you can lower pre-epic Monk to 4 raising Paladin to 14 and get 1 BAB in exchange of 1 Will save. Oh well, in the end you can take a lot of Paladin after all... raise base CHA to 20 and you can take more Paladin to get the Paladin spells. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 04/29/08 03:12
The Paladin/Bg route definitely makes the DC more attainable. Combining one of those with Sor sounds natural too, but I actually came pretty close to the 60 DC with a Monk 9 Bg 10 Wiz 21. I went Wiz instead of Sor for more skill points, and since you basically get 4x Great Int for free, it's easier on the starting stats. I went Bg instead of Pal because 10 Bg also gave me 3d6 sneaks, which, while not a whole lot, do come in handy as people are flat when caught in Time-Stop.
I ended up with 56 Will, which is passable, considering 14 Wis and 10 Cha for base stats. I escaped pre-epic with only 12 base Will (!). So, 22 Base +8 Wis +7 Feats (LoH, Iron Will, Epic Will) +10 Rings +6 Cha +3 Helm = 56. Having started with 18 dex and putting all points into that, I ended up with 75ac buffed (with Epic Mage Armor), and with 26 bab got 48ab dual wielding, 63 with true strike. 46ab with flurry of blows is actually pretty good vs Time-Stopped opponents, I'm finding.
I did another one with Sor instead of Wiz, and that hit the 60 DC no problem, but I lost a lot of skill points. On the Wiz version, I had enough skill points for Taunt and corner sneaking, for when I run out of Time-Stops, hehe. I like having as diverse a skill-set as possible, and am trying to figure out how to lose a feat in epic for a skilldump/esf to take epic traps too...
Also trying to work out a Time-Stop/Harm build... any suggestions on that one?
My build up there already does Time Stop plus Harm, but you and your 60 Will save DC...
Well, Harm attempt works on your STR modifier, so it's only natural to boost it as much as possible, you won't need Monk on that one, so if you have a Cleric / Sorcerer you could add either Fighter to free epic feats for Great Strentgh or Red Dragon Disciple for natural STR boost. Time Stop is a level 9 spell and Harm is level 6 (unless you want to try it as a Druid, then it's 7), so you can do with a Cleric 12 / Sorcerer 18 / Red Dragon Disciple 10. Taking only 4 RDD levels boost your STR +4, that can be a variant to get more spells. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
guys, not to be a party pooper, but look at it this way. FIrst, the server dudes made Time stop adjusted so as to be usable. Second, it appears they have manipulated ALOT in order to keep balance (WHO THE &**( would play a server where Div Power is nerfed! It is THE balance spell for clerics, and those that say no are lyin to you!). So, me thinks that maybe, just maybe, these dudes have already noticed bg/pal exploit. I am guessing that this has been forbidden to! It is extremely easy to do, just prevent alignment shifts! THis would also stop pal/pms, pal/bards etc. I know you seem to be set with this server, but honestly, how on earth can you play a server that has no respect for clerics!!?
I'll argument the Paladin / Blackguard / Sorcerer build anytime to be a powerful saves build, leave me be. Anyway, I won't start a debate about Divine Power being nerfed with you, it's pointless, like we're going to ever convince each other... but what if you're not the Cleric build? then you won't want your enemies to have it, there are many other classes still available. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
I'll argument the Paladin / Blackguard / Sorcerer build anytime to be a powerful saves build, leave me be. Anyway, I won't start a debate about Divine Power being nerfed with you, it's pointless, like we're going to ever convince each other... but what if you're not the Cleric build? then you won't want your enemies to have it, there are many other classes still available.
THax, you know i love and respect you, right? I didnt mean to impress upon your mind that i was talking about divine power.. Ill recap: builders augment div power, TIMESTOP and OTHERS (assuming), therefore NOT IDIOTS! The whole blackguard to pally shift (or vice versa) is more than likely been dealt with, dont you think? It a builder is so worried about a cleric gaining 4 apr from a short lived spell, dont you think they would guard against have a DOUBLE boost to saves from the exploit?
I am sorry i was vague. That was my only point. _________________
I agree with avado, Storm of Vengeance rocks, it stuns great, it can deal heavy damage over time, and Evasion doesn't work against it, you should try it in your strategy as well, too bad it's conjura
I think the Divine Power debate is a bad one to have, too, but I think it's enough to say Clerics are the only class capable of hitting the ab cap for extended periods of time with ease, while also being able to heal away damage many, many times before dying.
But yeah, the basic idea behind the requirements for the Time-Stop build is to either hit, or come close to hitting the DC consistently without special 'helpers' like alignment changes.
Quote: THax, you know i love and respect you, right?
Oh well, I'll take it as a signature then _________________
Quote: Posted 05/09/08 07:26 (GMT) -- avado
THax, you know i love and respect you, right?
LOL, you 2 really gotta read to the heart of what is being said! THere is no div power debate! Never is, never was! Please just hug and make up, k!
Let's see if we can make a tough character WITHOUT an exploit that is more than likely restricted... how that be?
Quote: Posted 05/10/08 03:24 (GMT) -- avado Let's see if we can make a tough character WITHOUT an exploit that is more than likely restricted... how that be?
That was the general idea in the first place
The Badlands pays strict attention to balance, so exploits like alignment changes and such are forbidden. Also, if you want that precious 4th attack with your cleric, you're gonna need that requisite 16 bab pre-epic to do it.
My clerics make more than 4 attacks all the time, just take monk and your base APR is going to be 5.
The part about the non-exploit build making Time Stop and the 60 Will save has been discusses already, the Paladin / Sorcerer / Monk or Blackguard / Sorcerer / Monk does it, no alignment shifts or exploits with those builds, they can even take more than 6 Monk so it's not even cheesy.
We could close the topic as far as I'm concerned. _________________
My build up there already does Time Stop plus Harm, but you and your 60 Will save DC...
My clerics make more than 4 attacks all the time, just take monk and your base APR is going to be 5.