Balanced Cleric II - Epic Character Builder's Guild

This is sort of a branch off of another topic regarding building a "balanced" cleric. Balanced meaning equally effective as a caster and a basher. Kail suggested that a Cleric 29, CoT 8, Rogue 3 might be a feasible distribution. So, I decided to take a shot at building something like that.

I kept the STR at 24 to still achieve Overwhelming Critical, but I wonder if the WIS is still too low. Another thought is perhaps I should drop ESF: Disc for Epic Prowess.

Human
Cleric(29), Rogue(3), CoT(8)
Any Non-Evil

PvM
Playable 1-40
No XP Penalties

Trickery & War Domains

Abilities:

STR: 16 (24)
DEX: 8
CON: 14
WIS: 15 (22)
INT: 14
CHA: 8

Stats:

Hitpoints: 410
Skillpoints: 251
Saving Throws (F/W/R): 29/30/24
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +8
BAB: 25
AB (max, naked): 35 (melee), 24 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 17/28

Final Skills:

Concentration 41(43)
Discipline 42(59)
Lore 24(26)
Persuade 21(20)
Spellcraft 41(43)
Tumble 41(40)
UMD 41(40)

Lvl Progression:

01: Rogue(1): Cleave, Power Attack
02: Cleric(1):
03: Cleric(2): Weapon Focus
04: Cleric(3): WIS+1, (WIS=16)
05: Cleric(4)
06: Cleric(5): Blind Fight
07: Cleric(6)
08: Cleric(7): WIS+1, (WIS=17)
09: Cleric(8): Combat Casting
10: Cleric(9)
11: Cleric(10)
12: Cleric(11): WIS+1, Knockdown, (WIS=18)
13: Cleric(12)
14: Cleric(13)
15: Cleric(14): Extend Spell
16: Cleric(15): STR+1, (STR=17)
17: Cleric(16)
18: CoT(1): Empower Spell
19: CoT(2): Great Cleave
20: Rogue(2): STR+1, {Evasion}, (STR=18)
21: CoT(3): Spell Penetration, {Smite Evil}
22: CoT(4): Improved Critical
23: Cleric(17)
24: Cleric(18): STR+1, Spell Focus: Evo, (STR=19)
25: Cleric(19)
26: Cleric(20)
27: Cleric(21): Epic Weapon Focus
28: Cleric(22): STR+1, (STR=20)
29: Cleric(23): Great Wisdom I, (WIS=19)
30: Cleric(24): Great Strength I, (STR=21)
31: Cleric(25)
32: Cleric(26): STR+1, Greater Spell Focus: Evo, (STR=22)
33: CoT(5): Great Strength II, (STR=23)
34: Cleric(27)
35: CoT(6): Overwhelming Critical
36: CoT(7): WIS+1, Great Strength III, (STR=24), (WIS=20)
37: Cleric(28)
38: Cleric(29): Epic Spell Focus: Evo
39: CoT(8): Epic Skill Focus: Discipline, Great Wisdom II, (WIS=21)
40: Rogue(3): WIS+1, {Uncanny Dodge I}, (WIS=22)

Feats Taken (in order):

Power Attack
Cleave
Weapon Focus
Blind Fight
Combat Casting
KD
Extend Spell
Empower Spell
Great Cleave
SP
Imp. Crit
SF: Evo
Epic WF
Great WIS I
Great STR I
Greater SF: Evo
Great STR II
Over. Crit
Great STR III
Epic SF: Evo
Epic SF: Disc
Great WIS II

Quote: Posted 04/29/08 17:19 (GMT) -- Mac_Biodiesel

Human
Cleric(29), Rogue(3), CoT(8)
Any Non-Evil
Trickery & War Domains
STR: 16 (24)
DEX: 8
CON: 14
WIS: 15 (22)
INT: 14
CHA: 8

01: Rogue(1): Cleave, Power Attack
02: Cleric(1):
03: Cleric(2): Weapon Focus
04: Cleric(3): WIS+1, (WIS=16)
05: Cleric(4)
06: Cleric(5): Blind Fight
07: Cleric(6)
08: Cleric(7): WIS+1, (WIS=17)
09: Cleric(8): Combat Casting
10: Cleric(9)
11: Cleric(10)
12: Cleric(11): WIS+1, Knockdown, (WIS=18)
13: Cleric(12)
14: Cleric(13)
15: Cleric(14): Extend Spell
16: Cleric(15): STR+1, (STR=17)
17: Cleric(16)
18: CoT(1): Empower Spell
19: CoT(2): Great Cleave
20: Rogue(2): STR+1, {Evasion}, (STR=18)
21: CoT(3): Spell Penetration, {Smite Evil}
22: CoT(4): Improved Critical
23: Cleric(17)
24: Cleric(18): STR+1, Spell Focus: Evo, (STR=19)
25: Cleric(19)
26: Cleric(20)
27: Cleric(21): Epic Weapon Focus
28: Cleric(22): STR+1, (STR=20)
29: Cleric(23): Great Wisdom I, (WIS=19)
30: Cleric(24): Great Strength I, (STR=21)
31: Cleric(25)
32: Cleric(26): STR+1, Greater Spell Focus: Evo, (STR=22)
33: CoT(5): Great Strength II, (STR=23)
34: Cleric(27)
35: CoT(6): Overwhelming Critical
36: CoT(7): WIS+1, Great Strength III, (STR=24), (WIS=20)
37: Cleric(28)
38: Cleric(29): Epic Spell Focus: Evo
39: CoT(8): Epic Skill Focus: Discipline, Great Wisdom II, (WIS=21)
40: Rogue(3): WIS+1, {Uncanny Dodge I}, (WIS=22)

There is lots I would never do in a cleric build here. Things like stopping at OC, not takin DC. Wastin 2 epic feats on non epics (i know i did that years ago, but i have learned). While KD is nice, is it necessary with a fast killing cleric (is there any other kind?). why 22 wis? IF your focus is on balance, stop at 20. 22 gives you nothing useful vs str improvement. I try to keep my cleric with higher caster lvls (today), but 30 is decent.

In the end though, remember this: designing a balanced cleric is sort of like using white paint to make a white wall white. A cleric IS balanced! They use their spells to make up for shortfalls in their fighting ability (and get bonuses that every fighter would KILL for). AND they have the best AOE spells around (sov and firestorm are wonderful). They can take out undead easily (heal mass heal) golems (sov + firestorm) living (harm) OR they can just saunter into combat and duke it out with their mace! How much more balanced do you want?

In your stats, i would NOT stop at 22 wis 24 str. I would stop wis at 20 OR go to 30. What does 22 give you that 20 doesnt? not much. What does 30 give you 22 doesnt (some slots, BUT spell Dc!). imho, the incerase to str is much wiser to do than wisdom. I have done both and the more str is NEVER wasted, while i always seem to have more spells memed than i need per rest period.

Never take combat casting! That is a feat that bioware has put in that is amazingly useless (just add skills to concentrate, and as a cleric, where else do you put skills?). Blind fight?? What is true sight for? KD?? stunn and gun is my motto. Hit the casters first and hit hard (more str!!! + damage melee spells).

In the end, your build is a fair start. I just hope that you take a look at what the cleric has to offer before you build your guy like a fighter (cuz they arent, but they are....)

*edit: YES to epic prowess! You are a cleric which means you have 3/4 ab, so you NEED every ab opp you can get. ALSO, look at armor skin. ac is nice too.
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Quote: Posted 11/27/07 23:01 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia

I agree with avado, Storm of Vengeance rocks, it stuns great, it can deal heavy damage over time, and Evasion doesn't work against it, you should try it in your strategy as well, too bad it's conjura
Edited By avado on 05/04/08 05:56

Many good points Avado, but Blindfight is much more than hitting invisible opponents, and you know that. It's a must have feat for all meleers. It reduces light concealment to nothing, practically. (f.ex. 30% to 9%) and 50% to 25%. That is a feat a melee build should never, ever be without.

But his choice to spend feats on Spell Focus is a waste IMO. Either go high Wisdom with 30++ AND Spell focus, or go low Wisdom with 19-20 and no spell focus.
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We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside
is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky
I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind
Sons of Odin fights to die and live again

Quote: Posted 04/29/08 17:19 (GMT) -- Mac_Biodiesel
Feats Taken (in order):

Power Attack
Cleave
Weapon Focus
Blind Fight
Combat Casting
KD
Extend Spell
Empower Spell
-- Epic Subdivider --
Great Cleave
SP
Imp. Crit
SF: Evo
Epic WF
Great WIS I
Great STR I
Greater SF: Evo
Great STR II
Over. Crit
Great STR III
Epic SF: Evo
Epic SF: Disc
Great WIS II

Feats to reconsider:
Combat Casting: Not really useful at high levels
Great Cleave: only keep if you go for dev crit, otherwise you won't use it often
Overwhelming Crit: Only a slight amount of extra damage, clerics have many ways of dealing more
Spell Focus: Not a high enough wisdom for a decent DC

Feats to consider:
Divine Might: Extra divine damage base on charisma (redo starting stats for this)
Devastating Crit: Its low DC but it does kill and infinite uses/day
Epic Prowess: +1 AB
(Perhaps) Epic Spell: Dragon Knight

Edited By WhiZard on 05/04/08 08:05

Good advice given by the previous posters.

I will add this, I see that your build is for PvM. I think that if you want to create a more "balanced cleric" build for PvM you should focus more on WIS and the spell focus feats. I have played several mods PvM and I play a lot of fighter type builds, with no buffing ability at all, so my AB will usually be between 42-45 with no bonuses to weapons or gear on. I usually can hold my own in most modules and a cleric can get to those numbers easily and well past those numbers in most cases.

I would say leave STR around 18-20 and take WIS to 30. I can compare that to the Paladin builds I play that leave STR at 18-20 and take CHA to 30. I know that Paladins get the best AB progression, but still, the Cleric gets a lot more buffs to AB as well as defensive buffs and the offensive spells as well.

PvP is another story. Are you planning on doing PvP with this build as well? In my opinion, just 20 Cleric levels with 19 WIS makes a decent caster for whenever you need casting, if you focus on a buffer meleer your overall stats end stronger. You will hardly ever use spells, and you can't rely on them either, so if you stay at a point where you can cast all your spells at max power that's enough.

There's no such thing as a powerful meleer with high DC and Penetration, as far as "balanced" goes taking the melee route still leaves you enough spellpower, or taking the spell route still leaves you enough melee. The middlepoint sucks.
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"My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."

Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn