Well I'm playing in a server with pvp but mainly PvM. I want to build a pvp character now so I 'm not interested how well it does in PvM but mainly focusing on PvP abilities. The fact is that many people run from PvP and I hate that ! Well thats why they must die ! So I 'm trying to figure a fast running killing machine.

My server supports up to +5 items ac, ab , stats.Mages could be a pain but many spells are nerfed and do half damage.

My main idea was to create a character that runs fast and deals death quickly like a monk dever,with a scimmy maybe.

I am between 2 ideas . The first one is a monk 20 ( for SR and speed and other nice monk things) and 20 Bard for Song and buffs and UMD) . The other idea is 10 monk ( the speed will be still good and with a proper sub might run faster )/20 Bard again for song , curse song and umd )/ and Rdd 10 for all the nice abilities .

I would like it to be a dever and i dont care if he is not using a kama. Because i'm aiming for dev crit. I 'm not sure now about the AC output . It seems to me that wil be pretty low and I wouldnt like to meet a WM...

Any input in this would be appreciated . Monk has to be Lawful, and Bard cannot be Lawful, so you can't have both classes in the same build, unless you are willing and able to make an alignment shift every time you go from one to the other. Some PWs don't allow alignment shift at all. Therefore, to have a Monk-RDD, you have to use Sorcerer to gain access to RDD. I suggest Monk 25 / Sorcerer 1 / RDD 14. The extra 4 levels of RDD gives you a bonus feat and 4 levels with d12 hit dice (and a stronger Dragon Breath, but nobody ever uses that).

Dual-wielding kamas would give you more attacks per round, and therefore more chances at dev crit.

When I made my Order of the Wyrm build, I also made this variation that uses Kamas, but didn't post it, until now. If you really don't care about PvM, you could shuffle some skill points around to drop Lore and Persuade, putting those 27 points into Spot on RDD levels.

Order of the Wyrm II (Monk 25 / Sorcerer 1 / Red Dragon Disciple 14)
Human, Any Lawful
PvM or PvP, Playable 1 - 40

Abilities:
STR: 16 (36)
DEX: 14 (16)
CON: 14 (16)
WIS: 14
INT: 10 (12)
CHA: 8 (10)

Leveling Guide:
Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Monk(1): Blind Fight, Two-Weapon Fighting, {Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist}
02: Monk(2): {Deflect Arrows}
03: Monk(3): Weapon Focus: Kama
04: Monk(4): DEX+1, (DEX=15)
05: Monk(5)
06: Monk(6): Ambidexterity, {Knockdown, Improved Knockdown}
07: Monk(7)
08: Monk(8): STR+1, (STR=17)
09: Monk(9): Power Attack, {Improved Evasion}
10: Monk(10)
11: Monk(11)
12: Monk(12): STR+1, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, (STR=18)
13: Monk(13)
14: Monk(14)
15: Monk(15): Improved Critical: Kama
16: Monk(16): STR+1, (STR=19)
17: Monk(17)
18: Monk(18): Great Cleave
19: Monk(19)
20: Monk(20): STR+1, (STR=20)
21: Sorcerer(1): Epic Weapon Focus: Kama
22: Red Dragon Disciple(1)
23: Red Dragon Disciple(2): (STR=22)
24: Monk(21): STR+1, Overwhelming Critical: Kama, (STR=23)
25: Red Dragon Disciple(3)
26: Red Dragon Disciple(4): (STR=25)
27: Monk(22): Devastating Critical: Kama
28: Red Dragon Disciple(5): STR+1, (STR=26)
29: Red Dragon Disciple(6)
30: Red Dragon Disciple(7): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=16), (CON=16)
31: Red Dragon Disciple(8)
32: Monk(23): STR+1, (STR=27)
33: Red Dragon Disciple(9): Great Strength I, (STR=28), (INT=12)
34: Red Dragon Disciple(10): {Darkvision}, (STR=32), (CHA=10)
35: Red Dragon Disciple(11)
36: Red Dragon Disciple(12): STR+1, Great Strength II, (STR=34)
37: Monk(24)
38: Red Dragon Disciple(13)
39: Red Dragon Disciple(14): Great Strength III, Epic Prowess, (STR=35)
40: Monk(25): STR+1, Armor Skin, (STR=36)

Stats:
Hitpoints: 456
Skillpoints: 192
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 25/24/25
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +8, Mind Effects: +2
BAB: 25
AB (max, naked): 42 (melee), 29 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 34/34
Spell Casting:
Alignment Changes: 0

Skills:
Discipline 43(56), Listen 43(45), Lore 13(14), Persuade 14(14), Spellcraft 39(40), Tumble 40(43)

01: Discipline(4), Listen(4), Lore(4), Persuade(4), Tumble(4)
02: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Persuade(1), Tumble(1)
03: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Persuade(1), Tumble(1)
04: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Persuade(1), Tumble(1)
05: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Persuade(1), Tumble(1)
06: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Persuade(1), Tumble(1)
07: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Persuade(1), Tumble(1)
08: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Persuade(1), Tumble(1)
09: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Persuade(1), Tumble(1), Save(1)
10: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1), Save(3)
11: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1), Save(5)
12: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1), Save(7)
13: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1), Save(9)
14: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1), Save(11)
15: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1), Save(13)
16: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1), Save(15)
17: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1), Save(17)
18: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1), Save(19)
19: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1), Save(21)
20: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1), Save(23)
21: Spellcraft(24), Save(2)
22: Discipline(2), Listen(2), Spellcraft(1)
23: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(1)
24: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Tumble(4)
25: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1)
26: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1)
27: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Tumble(3)
28: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1)
29: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1)
30: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(1)
31: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(2)
32: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Tumble(5)
33: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1)
34: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(2)
35: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(2)
36: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(1)
37: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Tumble(5)
38: Spellcraft(4)
39: Discipline(2), Listen(2)
40: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(2), Persuade(2)
_________________
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The NWN Vault Nothing personal, but you did notice that your build has NO TRUE STRIKE, right? Lose some starting Con for Cha. With 25 levels of Monk for speed, True Strike is all kinds of useful in PvP (which is what he asked the build to be for - even mentioning stopping runners), and not
having it is a total shame.

Edited out excessive quoting - Grimnir

Edited By Grimnir77 on 05/23/08 06:04

I didn't set out to make a caster. Do you really want to give up all that health for a couple castings of a short-lived buff that can be dispelled with little more than a sneeze? That single Sorcerer level is there for the sole purpose of gaining access to RDD.
Quote: Posted 05/23/08 02:11 (GMT) -- Empyre65

I didn't set out to make a caster. Do you really want to give up all that health for a couple castings of a short-lived buff that can be dispelled with little more than a sneeze? That single Sorcerer level is there for the sole purpose of gaining access to RDD.

Agreed. True strike is only useful for archers in PvP anyway. Everyone else just moves away from you once you start casting it, you're lucky if you even land a single blow while it still lasts. Speed won't help you with it's short duration.
_________________
We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside
is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky
I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind
Sons of Odin fights to die and live again Sadly, I tried and I've to agree.
In PvP only noobs and meleers without spellcraft are "victims" of True Strike.
The others just keep running away or around until the spell expires.
Moreover, you lose one full action to cast it and you're susceptible (right word?) of AoO, AoE spells, ranged attacks and so.
Really, if you're a monk the last thing you want is to allow a spellcaster to use Time Stop or Bigbys.
Quote: Posted 05/23/08 06:08 (GMT) -- Grimnir77

Quote: Posted 05/23/08 02:11 (GMT) -- Empyre65

I didn't set out to make a caster. Do you really want to give up all that health for a couple castings of a short-lived buff that can be dispelled with little more than a sneeze? That single Sorcerer level is there for the sole purpose of gaining access to RDD.

Agreed. True strike is only useful for archers in PvP anyway. Everyone else just moves away from you once you start casting it, you're lucky if you even land a single blow while it still lasts. Speed won't help you with it's short duration.

Since when does having 1 or 2 spells available to you make you a caster? Is an Assassin a caster then because it gets a couple of spells?

Look, assuming the server has haste items readily available, 25 levels of monk is PLENTY of speed with which to utilize True-Strike. If you have that much monk speed vs non-monk characters and you can't close in on them and hit them in a 9 second burst, you had simply better give up entirely.

Their running from it should make no difference.

Everyone runs from True Strike, unless they are a complete idiot, but that doesn't mean you will never hit with it if you know what you're doing, or even not hit with it most of the time.

I'm not sure what kind of PvP you're used to, but having played it exclusively for 4 years on several different servers has shown me that to not have True Strike when you could take it is simply asinine.

It's that little edge, that little push against the right builds that will keep you from hacking at them for 10 minutes and begging for a 20 roll. What happens when you run up against a high AC Epic Dodging build? Or a Pm Bard? Pm Fighter or Ranger? Pm Monk? Heck, Pm anything? Your paltry ab will simply not be enough without that extra push.

Besides, it's not like you couldn't live without a few more hit points and fort save - you're already fodder for a good Dev DC, and you can run and spam kits or heal pots from most builds.

Having a spell like True Strike handy, especially on a build with monk speed (and on a build that can get it with minimal tweaking), should be as much of a no-brainer as taking weapon finesse on a dex based melee build.

Edited By Hiwatt on 05/23/08 17:58

I 've read all the feedback on my first post and was very helpfull. I tried the build 25monk 1 sorc 14 rdd and it was pretty good ( Thank you Empyre65 ) . Extra fast and kicks around dmg. Only drawback is the lack of buffs which would be usefull for some pvp. That is what i want to have with 20 bard or even 16.

I forgot to mention that there is no alignment restrictions on my server so a bard can fit in a build with monk.
I thought of it and since i want him a dever i might get a scimmy instead of a kama. I'm just trying to weight the pros and cons of wide threat range OR more APR.

For the moment i'm testing a 20bard /12 monk / 8 Cot. but i'm thinking to switch to 20 bard/10 monk/10 rdd.

About True strike (Hiwatt) wont be a problem since i will be able to cast from scrolls.
The speed also will not be a problem since some subraces have extra speed. so 10 monk will give some nice boost.
I've learned how to buil with the excel worksheet and come to this :



STR: 16 (36)
DEX: 10
CON: 14 (16)
WIS: 8
INT: 14 (16)
CHA: 14 (16)

Human: (Quick to Master: Blind fight)
01: Bard(1): Curse Song
02: Bard(2)
03: Bard(3): Power Attack
04: Bard(4): STR+1, (STR=17)
05: Bard(5)
06: Bard(6): Craft Wand
07: Bard(7)
08: Bard(8): STR+1, (STR=18)
09: Monk(1): Extend Spell, {Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist}, *Alignment Change*
10: Monk(2): {Deflect Arrows}
11: Monk(3)
12: Monk(4): STR+1, Weapon Focus: Kama, (STR=19)
13: Red Dragon Disciple(1)
14: Red Dragon Disciple(2): (STR=21)
15: Red Dragon Disciple(3): Improved Critical: Kama
16: Red Dragon Disciple(4): STR+1, (STR=24)
17: Red Dragon Disciple(5)
18: Red Dragon Disciple(6): Great Cleave
19: Red Dragon Disciple(7): (CON=16)
20: Red Dragon Disciple(8): STR+1, (STR=25)
21: Red Dragon Disciple(9): Overwhelming Critical: Kama, (INT=16)
22: Red Dragon Disciple(10): {Darkvision}, (STR=29), (CHA=16)
23: Monk(5)
24: Monk(6): STR+1, Devastating Critical: Kama, {Knockdown, Improved Knockdown}, (STR=30)
25: Monk(7)
26: Monk(8)
27: Monk(9): Armor Skin, {Improved Evasion}
28: Bard(9): STR+1, (STR=31), *Alignment Change*
29: Bard(10)
30: Bard(11): Epic Weapon Focus: Kama
31: Bard(12)
32: Bard(13): STR+1, (STR=32)
33: Bard(14): Great Strength I, (STR=33)
34: Bard(15)
35: Bard(16)
36: Bard(17): STR+1, Great Strength II, (STR=35)
37: Bard(18)
38: Bard(19)
39: Bard(20): Lasting Inspiration
40: Monk(10): STR+1, (STR=36), *Alignment Change*

Hitpoints: 404
Skillpoints: 300
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 25/25/22
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +8, Mind Effects: +2
BAB: 25
AB (max, naked): 41 (melee), 25 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 26/32
Spell Casting: Bard(6)
Alignment Changes: 3

Discipline 43(56), Lore 8(31), Perform 40(43), Pick Pocket 42(42), Spellcraft 40(43), Taunt 40(43), Tumble 40(40), UMD 40(43), remaining skillpoints 7


01: Save(28),
02: Save(35),
03: Save(42),
04: Save(49),
05: Save(56),
06: Save(63),
07: Save(70),
08: Save(77),
09: Save(84),
10: Save(91),
11: Save(98),
12: Lore(8), Save(97),
13: Save(102),
14: Save(107),
15: Save(112),
16: Save(117),
17: Save(122),
18: Save(127),
19: Save(132),
20: Save(137),
21: Save(142),
22: Save(148),
23: Save(156),
24: Save(164),
25: Save(172),
26: Save(180),
27: Save(188),
28: Save(196),
29: Save(204),
30: Save(212),
31: Save(220),
32: Save(228),
33: Save(236),
34: Save(244),
35: Save(252),
36: Save(260),
37: Save(268),
38: Save(276),
39: Perform(40), Pick Pocket(42), Spellcraft(40), Taunt(40), UMD(40), Save(82),
40: Discipline(43), Tumble(40), Save(7),


I chose to take craft wand in case I ge tdispelled so i can run and buff. I will have prepared wands .
[I just bumped all skillpoints in the end , i will deal with those later.]

Edited By TasMagar on 05/29/08 12:22

The one thing this doesnt have vs cot is fighter ab progression. I always like that about the cot bard rdd. It is also crappy that kama have 20 crit! sorry 19-20! With all those attacks it will be nasty! Nicely done, though i will never get a chance to try him
_________________
Quote: Posted 07/24/06 22:47:54 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ

You should listen to avado

I finaly made this char , but with scimitar. i dropped craft wand for martial weapons feature and took scimmitar instead of kama.

the final outcome is very good. maxed the stats with items(+12 to dex and wis) and with +12 on str the ab is 52 and the ac is 64.

Fully buffed ac is 70 and ab is 56.
Quote: Posted 05/30/08 05:40 (GMT) -- avado

The one thing this doesnt have vs cot is fighter ab progression. I always like that about the cot bard rdd. It is also crappy that kama have 20 crit! sorry 19-20! With all those attacks it will be nasty! Nicely done, though i will never get a chance to try him

With imp-crit and the keen spell it will be 18+. And he is a bard you know, for keen. I think the APR trumps the higher crit range of the scim very fast, unless you fight mostly against enemies that is easy to hit.

True strike, again, even with superior speed, the distance can be closed inunder 9 secs for sure, but you'll still be lucky to hit with more than one blow, since your character will move instead of hit after the first blow, and 9 secs go away fast.
_________________
We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside
is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky
I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind
Sons of Odin fights to die and live again