Basically, it's a totally dex based rogue with a bit of SD, with ED and SC V as targets. Well, she has to survive Race: human (better) or halfling (not so better but OK ) Questions: 1) Is it possible to reach both targets? 2) Best levels progression? 3) Which 3rd class could be included, for RP or power purpose? I had to exclude BG and ASN because the character will be good or neutral. Monks are useless (just Cleave, Evasion is both a Rogue and an SD class feat), maybe Ftr...?
Thanks in advance! =)
-What class would you be shooting for as primary? Rogue or SD? Makes a big difference on how to build it.
-Are there any special rules for your server pertaining to SD? Some require you to take X levels of it; or they drop HiPS until you get to level 10, etc.
-Fighter would be a strong third class; both for needed AB and feats, as well as getting EWS for +6 damage. If you are Dex based this will be very useful as your only real source of damage will be sneak attacks. Ranger would also be useful for free feats in dual wielding, as well as discipline and favored enemies. _________________ -4SakN
The Moonshae Isles - Forgotten Realms A Role Play, Low Magic world
Did you have something like this in mind? Click Here _________________ I generally avoid temptation, unless I can't resist it...
Heres a quick human version of my Some Type Of Shadow .
Wow, thanks! =) My fault, I gave you few infos. So: 1) mostly rogue: she'll be our spy, trap recoverer and with SA as her only true attack; 2) The server will be a pure NWN, with haks for appearance and clothes - so, no big changes. 3) WS - EWS: her concept is "I'll use what I find", so WP:E could be in but WF and WS are out (exception: any WF if going for CoT).
Thanks again =)
Quote: Posted 05/22/08 07:09 (GMT) -- Valeren
Wow, thanks! =) My fault, I gave you few infos. So: 1) mostly rogue: she'll be our spy, trap recoverer and with SA as her only true attack; 2) The server will be a pure NWN, with haks for appearance and clothes - so, no big changes. 3) WS - EWS: her concept is "I'll use what I find", so WP:E could be in but WF and WS are out (exception: any WF if going for CoT).
Thanks again =)
Actually, I think you're on to something here, since you rule out EWS, which I wouldn't, then CoT is actually a very good choice for third class. Rogue29/1SD/CoT10 dual-wielding.
I wouldn't take Ranger unless going for BoE. Those so-called "free dualwielding" feats you gain from 9 ranger, a fighter gets in 4 levels since you're a dexer anyway. SD1 beyond 1 is mostly a waste too, in a rogue heavy build. Rogue does everything better after SD gives his HiPS.
I personally would have done Rogue29/SD1/Fighter10, with dual-wielding and EWS with maces. The fact that you're gonna go "I'll use what I find" don't lessen even if you go EWS. EWS:mace will help you alot when fighting crit immunes. If still don't want EWS, then I'd do CoT10 instead of fighter. Be aware though, that I don't think you can take Dual-wielding feats on the CoT bonus feats. Not all of them at least. But Armor skin, Epic prowess from the epic feat list, and several useful combat feats like KD, IKD and blindfight can, to name some.
*EDIT* And why is halfling "not so better"? It gains 2 AB and AC over a human, plus better stealth. It looses 43 skillpoints and a feat and can't KD huge opponents however, but still very much worth it to me. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Edited By Grimnir77 on 05/22/08 08:19
Halflings are good too, I had to explain her a lot of things. Let's say that a dimonstration of EBT against humans, elves and halflings cleared her mind
I translated and forwarded, the answer is pretty much: "No dual wield" -.-" Her idea is to avoid to get involved in long term fights.
FTR vs CoT: I never used CoT, but i remember two things: 1) feats every two levels; 2) higher saves = will and reflex With a +1 BAB progression, 8 or 10 levels pre-epic are a good bet.
But here I've a question: if a rogue with DW attempts a SA and succeeds, his off-hand attack will be another SA or a regular attack? In this case DW would be the path
Quote: Posted 05/22/08 09:22 (GMT) -- Valeren
I translated and forwarded, the answer is pretty much: "No dual wield" -.-" Her idea is to avoid to get involved in long term fights.
???She doesn't want dualwield, but she does want to kill faster? Is she drunk or something????
Quote: Posted 05/22/08 09:22 (GMT) -- Valeren FTR vs CoT: I never used CoT, but i remember two things: 1) feats every two levels; 2) higher saves = will and reflex With a +1 BAB progression, 8 or 10 levels pre-epic are a good bet.
Fighter gets a bonus feat at lvl1, which CoT doesn't. CoT needs 7 BAB before she can access it, plus a WF, but it gets better saving throws, and that's pretty much the upside. No EWS without fighter though.
Quote: Posted 05/22/08 09:22 (GMT) -- Valeren But here I've a question: if a rogue with DW attempts a SA and succeeds, his off-hand attack will be another SA or a regular attack? In this case DW would be the path
DW adds two offhand attacks each round. A combat round in NwN is divided into three flurries with attacks equally divided between them.
I assume BAB 16, which should be doable in this combo. Without DW, these are the flurries(#of att):2-1-1 or 2-2-1 with haste. With DW: 2-2-2, or 3-2-2 with haste. When she delivers a sneak attack, the whole first flurry WILL be sneak attacks, no matter. Sometimes your enemy is distracted by other means, though, so it let's you deliver a round or more, and then there is absolutely no contest as to what is most effective. And even if she has DW, there's no law that enforces her to use it when it's not beneficial. In some situations a shield is better, of course. I get the feeling that your "friend" thinks she must use every feat she adds all the time. It'd be a weird world if it were thus. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Quote: ???She doesn't want dualwield, but she does want to kill faster? Is she drunk or something????
Ehi, she's a "she" - blame nature!
Quote: When she delivers a sneak attack, the whole first flurry WILL be sneak attacks, no matter.
I never knew that, I supposed it could work for the second attack but not for the full flurry!
OK, so would it be possible? 1) ED; 2) SC V; 3) HiPS; 4) Dual; 5) Halfling (Quite a power build, and I'm not really used to)
Quote: Posted 05/22/08 10:27 (GMT) -- Valeren
I never knew that, I supposed it could work for the second attack but not for the full flurry!
OK, so would it be possible? 1) ED; 2) SC V; 3) HiPS; 4) Dual; 5) Halfling (Quite a power build, and I'm not really used to)
Well, darknights build up there give good pointers. Ditch ranger though, for fighter or CoT. Switch Human for halfling, and start with 10 STR 20 DEX 12 CON 8 WIS 14 INT 8 CHA
Take 7 fighter before level21, and a rogue level at 21. So at 21 you're like this: Rogue13/SD1/Fighter7. At Rogue10, take Imp Evasion, and at Rogue 13(lvl21) take Def roll and Epic Dodge. The only thing you lack from your demands by 21 is the SC feats. Plenty of room for them in 19 levels. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Quote: and at Rogue 13(lvl21) take Def roll and Epic Dodge. The only thing you lack from your demands by 21 is the SC feats. Plenty of room for them in 19 levels.
That's the only part i don't understand. How could be selected ED at 21? .look: Doesn't it require Tumble 30?
Quote: Posted 05/22/08 14:36 (GMT) -- Valeren
That's the only part i don't understand. How could be selected ED at 21? .look: Doesn't it require Tumble 30?
Nope. It requires tumble 1. The manual is wrong. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Just a note on that though: 1.69 will change it so Tumble 30 is required for Epic Dodge, if that makes a difference to you (depends on how long-term the character is intended to be). _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Here's a halfling build for you ....
01: Disable Trap(4), Hide(4), Listen(1), Move Silently(4), Open Lock(4), Search(1), Set Trap(1), UMD(1), Save(20), 02: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(5), UMD(1), Save(17), 03: Discipline(6), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Save(12), 04: Discipline(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Save(12), 05: Discipline(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Save(12), 06: Discipline(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Save(12), 07: Disable Trap(5), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(5), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(5), UMD(1), Save(1), 08: Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Search(1), Save(6), 09: Discipline(3), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Save(5), 10: Discipline(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Save(6), 11: Discipline(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Save(7), 12: Disable Trap(5), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(2), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(5), UMD(1), 13: Discipline(2), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), 14: Discipline(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), 15: Disable Trap(3), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), UMD(1), 16: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), UMD(1), Save(2), 17: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(5), UMD(1), 18: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(2), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(2), Search(1), Set Trap(1), UMD(1), 19: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(3), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), UMD(1), 20: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(4), Search(1), Set Trap(1), UMD(1), 21: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(2), Search(1), Set Trap(1), UMD(1), Save(2), 22: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(5), UMD(1), 23: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), UMD(4), 24: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), UMD(3), Save(1), 25: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(4), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), UMD(1), 26: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), UMD(1), Save(2), 27: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(5), UMD(1), 28: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(3), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), UMD(1), 29: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(3), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), UMD(1), 30: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(3), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), UMD(1), 31: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), UMD(1), Save(2), 32: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(5), UMD(1), 33: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(3), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), UMD(1), 34: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(3), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), UMD(1), 35: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(2), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), UMD(1), Save(1), 36: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), UMD(1), Save(3), 37: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(5), UMD(1), 38: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(2), UMD(2), 39: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), UMD(3), 40: Disable Trap(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Move Silently(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), UMD(3),
I know not a fighter level in sight but for some reason I really like how these 3 classes go together. This should work with 1.69 so no worries there. I liked the idea of being able to use whatever (finessable) weapon you find so WP:Exotic is in there, but also you should focus on a finessable melee weapon,Skill mastery was taken for help with traps and locks and what not, another option at that feat spot is crippling strike.
I like this mix as well, but what does Rogue 30 give over Rogue 29? I would go Rogue 29/Ranger 10/SD 1. Use the 10th Ranger level in Epic to pick up a bonus feat.
Quote: Posted 05/23/08 00:16 (GMT) -- galelabriel
Quote: Posted 05/22/08 23:41 (GMT) -- sbtedarknight Here's a halfling build for you .... Rogue(30), Ranger(9), Shadowdancer(1), Halfling
I like this mix as well, but what does Rogue 30 give over Rogue 29? I would go Rogue 29/Ranger 10/SD 1. Use the 10th Ranger level in Epic to pick up a bonus feat.
Nice call . It was a rushed(quick) build I would grab that extra ranger to pick up EWF(and a dis. dump). So it would look a little something like this...
Why do you guys keep insisting on ranger? I don't see it's contribution in this case. With decent spell-ability you can cast stealth spells to some degree, and get a little bonus to hide outdoors, but.....
Do fighter. Easily. Get's "free" dual-wielding in 4 levels, compared to rangers 9, so more levels for more feats. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Quote: Posted 05/23/08 06:02 (GMT) -- Grimnir77 Why do you guys keep insisting on ranger? I don't see it's contribution in this case. With decent spell-ability you can cast stealth spells to some degree, and get a little bonus to hide outdoors, but..... Do fighter. Easily. Get's "free" dual-wielding in 4 levels, compared to rangers 9, so more levels for more feats.
With 10 levels of fighter thats 6 extra feats (of which 3 will be for TWF) and heavy armor proficiency(which a sneaker won't be wearing). Compared with 10 levels of ranger which is basically 5 free feats (dual weild is like 2 and then ITWF)and trackless step (+4 to hide and Move silently outside) and the bonus feat in epic levels(instead of a favored enemy). Then add in 2 favored enemies (hey a bonus is a bonus ) , and a weak animal companion (can we say scout) also a couple spells and I think its a draw on which is better. Maybe even slanted slightly towards the ranger in this case (although it's not always the case). But then again its only my take on it.
_________________ Spirit, It is the hero's strength, the mother's resilience, and the poor man's armor. It cannot be broken, and it cannot be taken away. This I must believe. ~ Drizzt Do'Urden
Edited By sbtedarknight on 05/23/08 06:36
Guys, you all are amazing!!!
i forwarded the builds, and I don't think you'll like the answer but after your good work, I have to tell you
"Here, similar but different. Fighter or Ranger, pick your" "Ranger of course!" "??? So fast? Why?" "I want a pet!" Girls...
With 10 levels of fighter thats 6 extra feats (of which 3 will be for TWF) and heavy armor proficiency(which a sneaker won't be wearing). Compared with 10 levels of ranger which is basically 5 free feats (dual weild is like 2 and then ITWF)and trackless step (+4 to hide and Move silently outside) and the bonus feat in epic levels(instead of a favored enemy). Then add in 2 favored enemies (hey a bonus is a bonus ) , and a weak animal companion (can we say scout) also a couple spells and I think its a draw on which is better. Maybe even slanted slightly towards the ranger in this case (although it's not always the case). But then again its only my take on it.
The spells, which might help f.ex. stealth, was only in your last incarnation, though. If she really, really does not want EWS, which is weird in this case, and also add Wisdom then Ranger might be warranted. Also fighter over ranger makes it way easier to move more than one feat to the epic levels though. But the options for me in this case, like I said, would be either fighter (for EWS), if not wanted then CoT for better saves.
She's made her choice though, and it's been a good discussion. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Quote: Posted 05/23/08 09:53 (GMT) -- Grimnir77 The spells, which might help f.ex. stealth, was only in your last incarnation, though.
I was hoping nobody noticed that I forgot about them before.
Quote: Also fighter over ranger makes it way easier to move more than one feat to the epic levels though.
Yes it does.
Quote: But the options for me in this case, like I said, would be either fighter (for EWS), if not wanted then CoT for better saves.
If it (EWS) had been a must then we wouldn't be talking about this , and save boost's are nice. I would probably try cot before fighter myself but more for RP than for anything else.
Quote: She's made her choice though, and it's been a good discussion.
Yeah, I hope it works out for her. And I concur. A good discussion is always better than a good argument.
Edit: spelling
_________________ In the name of justice, I spite all misdeeds. Darkness has no power that light cannot undo, and even alone, I will not fear the evils that spread throughout our land, because I know that glory will prevail.
Edited By sbtedarknight on 05/23/08 12:30
Ehm, guys... Sorry to bother again We checked the build - OK, I explained and she nodded - but she partially refused one part. Lev 5 and another near the end: she doesn't want to focus in a weapon.
So, my alternatives for pre-epic are: 1) Disarm / Improved disarm (well, not really...); 2) Rapid shot; 3) Called shot; 4) Iron will;
For Epic, just Epic prowess: BoE is great, but with 3 FE is wasted. Better a +1 for sure than a +2 sometime!
And a doubt - from me: is Skill Mastery any better than Slippery mind? Will saves are the nightmare of any rogue, so a second roll should be always welcome.
Just to keep you all updated: her AC will be the Ferret
I can't edit my mistake: for RS I'd take Point blank before, So I'd drop Toughness or WP:E for the combo. Guys, what a feat starved build
Versatility truly has a price, but I'm starting to have fun with building And Kam spredsheet is simply amazing (quite difficult to understand at first, but it helps a lot).
So the problems are these levels and feats...
easy fix 15: Rogue(5): Iron will (this will bump will saves to 20) 38: Ranger(10): Epic prowess (better than nothing to replace wf and ewf)
skill mastery was taken because of ...
Quote: Posted 05/22/08 07:09 (GMT) -- Valeren 1) mostly rogue: she'll be our spy, trap recoverer and with SA as her only true attack
I thought it fit, personally if I was going to drop skill mastery I would probably grab crippling strike instead.
_________________ Spirit, It is the hero's strength, the mother's resilience, and the poor man's armor. It cannot be broken, and it cannot be taken away. This I must believe. ~ Drizzt Do'Urden
Many thanks! Tomorrow I'll try a Persuade check
Take Stealthy instead of Iron Will (plan on having someone in the party who can cast Prot. From Alignment to provide mind spell protection). That fits better with her design.
And if she really doesn't want to fight much, she can be a halfling and use a sling. Get's a racial bonus, doesn't need Weapon Finesse, can still generate sneak damage.
TM
Good Idea TM, I suggested iron will just to get the will save up to 20, but an extra boost to Hide and Move Silently(+2 to both) wouldn't be bad at all and does fit with the character concept.
_________________ In the name of justice, I spite all misdeeds. Darkness has no power that light cannot undo, and even alone, I will not fear the evils that spread throughout our land, because I know that glory will prevail.
I had dropped Stealthy because a PC with a final 43 in both Hide and MS with an impressive Dex bonus won't really use it. But I've to agree, because will start from level 1 and it fits perfectly! PoE won't be a problem, for a rogue with UMD
I just care about killing first.
Here's a halfling build for you ....
I can't edit my mistake: for RS I'd take Point blank before, So I'd drop Toughness or WP:E for the combo.