Ok so I was looking at grizzled_dwarflord 's build The War Machine of Gruumsh (Nice build btw) and it got me thinking that it needs a harper scout buddy that is more focused on casting. I don't play on any pw's as I never have time and I love solo'ing also I've never given in to the urge to play a cleric so I basically I need help refining this cleric heavy, barb/cleric/h.s. so that it is both playable and effective. I've tossed this guy together with the cbc ....
So yeah he's rough I know, anyways is the auto-quicken line really needed? Should I drop them move the silents to the cleric bonus feat slots and pick up weapon focus's for a boost to ab? Do I really need all the spell related feats in pre-epic I was thinking to just grab 1 or 2 (empower,maximize) but they couldn't be auto'ed in the epic spots.Also the epic reflexes was just to get that save at/over 20. So anyways this has me feeling newbish and company just got here so I gotta go. Any help would be great....
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Quote: Posted 07/11/08 16:56 (GMT) by Knight_ofLimbo More charisma= more ladies.
Edited By sbtedarknight on 09/02/08 22:58
Um ok so nobody has any comments . Not sure if I should be scared of that or not . Was it really that bad, I mean isn't it hard to mess up a cleric build? At least thats what i've heard/read. I was expecting some type of comment be it nice or harsh. So yeah anybody, any insight?
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Quote: Posted 07/11/08 16:56 (GMT) by Knight_ofLimbo More charisma= more ladies.
Well, first of all, the title is pretty bad... because it says nothing at all. I don't know the rest of the people but I don't understand what H/O means, (maybe that's just me since English is not my first language, but I still find the title very awkward).
You said yourself that it's hard to mess up a Cleric build...
Alright, you want harsh, I'll be harsh:
So, why do you take 4 Barbarian? it seems totally useless. 4 Fighter gives good feats and possible EWS. 4 Monk gives a lot of Monk-ish abilities. 4 Shadowdancer gives HiPS. 4 Bard gives a good skillset. 4 Barbarian gives probably nothing, it's better to get Uncanny Dodge taking Rogue levels. If you're going to say you take Barbarian for the RP effect of being a Barbarian then you don't really need any criticism.
Alright, I'll try to be useful now:
Automatic Quicken Spell is a very useless feat, or rather, a very useless line of feats. It makes the same effect as Haste (allow you to cast 2 times per round) and it won't stack with Haste, so get Haste and all the Quicken Spell becomes trash.
Automatic Silent spell isn't so bad, but it's a very big feat investment. A buffed Cleric has no need for that.
Cleric Domains: The best Domain is Trickery because it gives you Improved Invisibility, which gives 50% Concealment with a good duration (1 turn per level). There is absolutely no good reason not to take Trickery, no matter what type of Cleric you're building, 50% Concealment is extremely powerful. Another good Domain can be Travel, because it gives you Haste. If you can get items with permanent Haste then don't take Travel. Personally, I like Plant Domain to get Barkskin but most people like War Domain to get Aura of Vitality.
Your stats are terrible, seriously. You're taking Half-Orc which lowers your INT and CHA but increases STR. You should only take Half-Orc when you want a high STR no-INT no-CHA melee fighter. Along with that idea, you don't need CHA at all, it's useless for your classes. Lower it as much as you can. Human is advisable.
You take Epic Prowess but no Weapon Focus. That's a mistake IMO. Weapon Focus and Epic Weapon Focus will boost your AB by +3, you're already taking useless feats like the quickening so you have space for that. If you go Human you also get an extra pre-epic feat.
If you're planning on fighting in melee grab some Great Strength feats.
I think that should cover all the important things. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 09/05/08 01:28
Quote: Posted 09/05/08 01:26 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia I don't know the rest of the people but I don't understand what H/O means
Half orc
Quote: So, why do you take 4 Barbarian? If you're going to say you take Barbarian for the RP effect of being a Barbarian then you don't really need any criticism.
Favored class of the half orcs and r/p as well. I agree fighter would probably be better and I do love my shadow dancers but no xp penalty and a discipline dump works as well as a little rage..
Quote: Alright, I'll try to be useful now: Automatic Quicken Spell is a very useless feat, or rather, a very useless line of feats. It makes the same effect as Haste (allow you to cast 2 times per round) and it won't stack with Haste, so get Haste and all the Quicken Spell becomes trash.
Ok noted, never taken that lof's before.
Quote: Automatic Silent spell isn't so bad, but it's a very big feat investment. A buffed Cleric has no need for that.
Also noted.
Quote: Cleric Domains: The best Domain is Trickery Another good Domain can be Travel, I like Plant Domain to get Barkskin but most people like War Domain to get Aura of Vitality.
I was going to go with magic and travel, trickery and travel would work fine.
Quote: Your stats are terrible, seriously. You're taking Half-Orc which lowers your INT and CHA but increases STR. You should only take Half-Orc when you want a high STR no-INT no-CHA melee fighter. Along with that idea, you don't need CHA at all, it's useless for your classes. Lower it as much as you can. Human is advisable.
Allright I can lower charisma, but will it have a negative effect on my undead turning?
Quote: You take Epic Prowess but no Weapon Focus. That's a mistake IMO. Weapon Focus and Epic Weapon Focus will boost your AB by +3, you're already taking useless feats like the quickening so you have space for that. If you go Human you also get an extra pre-epic feat.
Not going to switch to human but I will have extra feat slots open.
Quote: If you're planning on fighting in melee grab some Great Strength feats.
Maybe .
Quote: I think that should cover all the important things.
Thanks thax .
_________________ In the name of justice, I spite all misdeeds. Darkness has no power that light cannot undo, and even alone, I will not fear the evils that spread throughout our land, because I know that glory will prevail.
Edited By sbtedarknight on 09/05/08 03:14
Truth be told, I think Undead Turning is pretty useless too, so the fact is I don't know how to strengthen it. At any rate, it's a big mistake to take Half-orc and trying to have a good CHA and INT score, you end losing stat points doing that. Having 14 INT is pretty bad too. INT is useful alright but with the penalty for Half-Orc you're spending 10 points to start with 14 INT, the same you would need to start with 18 STR. You need to master the opportunity cost to make good choices.
By the way, Shadowdancer won't get XP penalty anyway, it's a Prestige Class. _________________
Quote: Posted 07/28/06 23:16:09 (GMT) -- Big Meph Using the 2 ESF's in a dex based sneak build, to me, just looks like you're teasing your diabetic opponent with extra sugar on your whipcream covered chocolate mudcake.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 09/05/08 04:22
OH MY GOD!
First, a cleric CANNOT be messed up, as long as you take wisdom to 20. That allows you to cast all your spells, and that is all you really need.
I think Thax is being too easy! OMG you took 2 sets of AUTO spell feats! I dont think in all my years of playing that i have EVER seen a build do that, EVER! See, with a cleric, you generally dont require auto spell feats. You can cast in armor, so still isnt needed (as auto). You have spells vs silence so not needed. YOu have or can have haste, so no quicken. THere is a reason to take still OR silent spell, and the ONLY reason for a cleric is to cast heals or harms one spell slot higher = more harms/heals than you would normally have. THat is IT!
TO take auto silent is unforgivable! UNFORGIVABLE! Auto quicken is a pw thing, but mostly a waste of 4 feats. That is 8 wasted feats in one build that doesnt get too many feats as it is!
Trying to copy griz's build with barb/cleric, while admirable, you have MURDERED the original intent of that build. Griz's build is a masterpiece (i used it with variation myself (used prc classes)). You some how succeeded in making an amazing build garbage!
Thax took care of the uselessness of the feats. What truly worries me is how useless your stats are! You actually bump 3? dude, i think even the worst character builder ever designed (biowares Recommend button) would never choose 3 stat increases (unless you somehow chose 3 different classes on stat bump levels!). Be epic and make a stand... str or wisdom? what are you doin with dex!! I know but man! find an item with 2 dex! or dont worry bout it! its -1 ac!
You asked for comments. After seeing your pitiful excuses vs Thax's comments, i expect the same here. Be a man dude. IF you are going to mix cleric with harper, at least have a reason! If you posted one, i apologize! I dont take anyone seriously who makes up such nonsense then tries to defend it vs sound suggestions.
All this said, there is something to be said for the power of the cleric class. Cuz at the end of the day, the class will make this build playable! It has NOTHING at all to do with how you designed the build. It is just how powerful a 20+ cleric is.
I apologize for the on topic rant, but i really cant stand a dude who makes garbage then tries to justify it via rp... in my mind, a cleric could NEVER rp autosilent! I know you are new, but please dont ask for input then try to ignore the suggestions!
oh, turning undead iirc has to do with charisma too. YOu forgot to increase that stat too!! _________________
I agree with avado, Storm of Vengeance rocks, it stuns great, it can deal heavy damage over time, and Evasion doesn't work against it, you should try it in your strategy as well, too bad it's conjura
Quote: Posted 09/05/08 04:05 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia Having 14 INT is pretty bad too. INT is useful alright but with the penalty for Half-Orc you're spending 10 points to start with 14 INT, the same you would need to start with 18 STR. You need to master the opportunity cost to make good choices.
I needed the extra skill points to make the tumble/discipline dumps worthwhile and possible.
Quote: By the way, Shadowdancer won't get XP penalty anyway, it's a Prestige Class.
I know.
Quote: Posted 09/05/08 04:32 (GMT) -- avado OH MY GOD! First, a cleric CANNOT be messed up, as long as you take wisdom to 20. That allows you to cast all your spells, and that is all you really need.
ok
Quote: I think Thax is being too easy!
at least one of you was .
Quote: OMG you took 2 sets of AUTO spell feats! I dont think in all my years of playing that i have EVER seen a build do that, EVER!
No points for originality huh ...
Quote: See, with a cleric, you generally dont require auto spell feats. You can cast in armor, so still isnt needed (as auto). You have spells vs silence so not needed. YOu have or can have haste, so no quicken. THere is a reason to take still OR silent spell, and the ONLY reason for a cleric is to cast heals or harms one spell slot higher = more harms/heals than you would normally have. THat is IT! TO take auto silent is unforgivable! UNFORGIVABLE! Auto quicken is a pw thing, but mostly a waste of 4 feats. That is 8 wasted feats in one build that doesnt get too many feats as it is!
Allright so the regular feats are acceptable but not the auto's got it, And I did ask if the quicken ones where even needed. Is only taking empowered and/or maximize good enough?
Quote: Trying to copy griz's build with barb/cleric, while admirable, you have MURDERED the original intent of that build. Griz's build is a masterpiece (i used it with variation myself (used prc classes)). You some how succeeded in making an amazing build garbage!
While I was not intending to copy his whole build I did use his leveling pre-epic (but not feats) as a templete (it is a good looking build after all, his not mine). As to being garbage I was asking on how to make a playable character with the classes selected.
Quote: Thax took care of the uselessness of the feats. What truly worries me is how useless your stats are! You actually bump 3? dude, i think even the worst character builder ever designed (biowares Recommend button) would never choose 3 stat increases (unless you somehow chose 3 different classes on stat bump levels!). Be epic and make a stand... str or wisdom? what are you doin with dex!! I know but man! find an item with 2 dex! or dont worry bout it! its -1 ac!
I know what the recommend button does, I did build all of the base classes as humans in an old thread which was probably the only time I've ever built a cleric. I did do wis to 20 then the rest into str, and the dex was a harper bonus feat I guess it could have gone to charisma.
Quote: You asked for comments. After seeing your pitiful excuses vs Thax's comments, i expect the same here. Be a man dude. IF you are going to mix cleric with harper, at least have a reason! If you posted one, i apologize! I dont take anyone seriously who makes up such nonsense then tries to defend it vs sound suggestions.
What exactly did I defend it against? the reasoning for taking barb? Sorry I didn't want an xp penalty and I like harper scouts (not to mention barbarians) not as a power gaming class (but they can be useful sometimes) but for flavor.
Quote: I apologize for the on topic rant, but i really cant stand a dude who makes garbage then tries to justify it via rp... in my mind, a cleric could NEVER rp autosilent! I know you are new, but please dont ask for input then try to ignore the suggestions!
Ok well the garbage was just a rough idea, we can throw it out so calm down. 2005 is new...ok I guess so. I've never taken any of the autosilents or quicken before (i have taken the still ones though) in a build so I asked for help . and what did I ignore?
Quote: oh, turning undead iirc has to do with charisma too. YOu forgot to increase that stat too!!
That I did.. how bad is it to have a negative score if turning is not a priority?
Thanks for the reply.
_________________ Spirit, It is the hero's strength, the mother's resilience, and the poor man's armor. It cannot be broken, and it cannot be taken away. This I must believe. ~ Drizzt Do'Urden
Edited By sbtedarknight on 09/05/08 05:58
How is this guy? I had him ready before I replied to the last 2 posts..
Here's a question do you have to have points in open lock, disable trap and pick pocket for the domain to help it? (hope that made sense.)
_________________
Quote: Posted 03/27/08 00:27 (GMT) by Brian Chung Yes, we'll release a huge patch, then cut off multiplayer and premium module support immediately after.
Edited By sbtedarknight on 09/05/08 05:51
I'll answer the last part on trickery. Yes. It's still a training required class, so you need 1pt. Of course, with a neg charisma modifier, I'd probably move away from counting on that domain anyway. Go with two that don't require charisma. Unless you just want improved invis and don't care about the skill boost.
Quote: Posted 09/05/08 09:20 (GMT) -- RangerSG
I'll answer the last part on trickery. Yes. It's still a training required class, so you need 1pt. Of course, with a neg charisma modifier, I'd probably move away from counting on that domain anyway.
Having a low CHA doesn't make the skill boosting part of the trickery domain useless. CHA can be pumped and the trickery domain's special power duration is at least turn based instead of round based as, for example, the war domain.
Quote: Go with two that don't require charisma. Unless you just want improved invis and don't care about the skill boost.
Or unless you want to use skill boosting for a slightly shorter duration. _________________ My enemies rise and look to the skies They pray I will never appear Their life has no meaning Awake they are dreaming They live in a castle of fear
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 09/05/08 14:43
You're rough as usual avado. New guys can't stand so much hate. In our powerbuilding minds Concept never beats Power. It's not fun to play a weak character and get owned IMO, but I'm far tired from trying to make people believe it, so don't be so head straight intolerant with newbies.
Truth be told I do believe taking Harper Scout on a STR based Cleric is really bad. I once made a Cleric / Harper Scout / Monk which was a very crazy attempt of super buffs, increasing AC with DEX, WIS and CHA buffs, but in the end I didn't post it because it was kinda weak.
I was very specific about why it's a bad idea to raise INT and CHA in a Half-Orc, but I'm already through with that, it's your problem to believe me or not. Raising DEX is also a class problem. You're taking Great DEX as HS bonus feats, which yeah it's useless, but so the whole class. I won't recommend to change the build RP idea because that never works.
Empower Spell and Maximize Spell are pretty nice, I usually take those two. Yeah, only those two. The new build looks better but Epic Spells are not good investments. The good Epic Spells are only available for Sorcerer and Wizard.
Raising WIS to 22 isn't very wise either. You need 19 to cast all the spells, but if you're not a main caster then that +1 DC won't make a difference. My theory is that specialization makes your build stronger (it works for like 95% of the cases), so focus in Wisdom and go caster or focus in Strength and go meleer, but if you try half and half you will half-suck in both. You have extra epic feats for Great STR or Great WIS because you should really drop the epic spells. _________________
Quote: Posted 05/09/08 07:26 (GMT) -- avado
THax, you know i love and respect you, right?
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 09/06/08 00:36
I want to add my voice to those advising against a Half-Orc Barbarian / Cleric / Harper Scout. That said, how about this for a compromise build? It should be more playable, while still hopefully fitting your role-playing concept.
If you know you will not have access to a perma-haste item, like Boots of Speed, then take Travel domain instead of Magic. The build will gain some playability, but lose some style, if you replace those 2 epic spells with 2 more Great Strength. You might consider replacing those 2 Great Dexterity feats with a couple Favored Enemies, but I don't know which enemies to choose. Even though Barbarian does not get Heavy Armor proficiency, he does not suffer any penalty at all if you get it somewhere else (like from Cleric) and wear some. Without Concentration, you simply cast your long-lasting buffs before you enter an area where you might have combat, and forgo short-duration buffs, unless you get a chance to cast them just before you round a corner into combat.
If you want, I could build you a Human Fighter / Cleric / Harper Scout that would be a more powerful build.
You're rough as usual avado. New guys can't stand so much hate. In our powerbuilding minds Concept never beats Power. It's not fun to play a weak character and get owned IMO, but I'm far tired from trying to make people believe it, so don't be so head straight intolerant with newbies.
He's a newbie!! DOH! It says 2005! Oh well...
I just HATE when i see thoughtlessness put into a build. But to waste 8 feats in the name of style.. its almost as bad as SC5 in a gnome build (is it gnome that gets -2 dex... or am i in PRC still... oh well).
I have to say that harper and cleric in one build... why? The whole idea in combining classes is to build up the build. The only thing that harper would give is 2 gr dex feats/char feats and tumble. While not necessarily a bad thing, with a half orc, its a waste. Barbarian is a nice race class, but should be only one or 2 lvls, max. I know griz did 4 in his build (iirc) but i find that once you get the cleric going, things dont last realy long for barbarian feats. And, with a max ab boost, is the rage really worth it? imvho, no. That is why, though i loved the build, i ended his life around lv 20 or so of course, i did take dev crit with the version i made!
LOL i find it humourous that i come across so HARSH! In real life, i am not so much harsh, but blunt! You just cant soften in this format
I guess, maybe i should give up a secret of the epic builders guild... when you build, take a feat or class with the intent of improving the build (this means do it with preconcieved thought). It is OK to take Bard without RDD in a cleric build, for the tumble skill. But if you were to do that, would rogue be better cuz you would get some sneak damage? What about Assassin to avoid a xp penalty, but which requires skill investment to get? Take a feat like still spell with a class that can cast in full plate and tower shield ONLY to cast certain useful spells one slot higher? Things like that. When you do that, you will find that people can make suggestions, but you probably wont get the vote of worst epic build of the year (and i am really stressing PROBABLY, but i cant confirm it!).
Oh, and if you want a TRUE power build, make the ol' superpowered paladin/rdd/assassin! THink of it, dev crit, divin favour, sneaks and tumble too!! Plus you can gain access to your... oops said to much _________________
This post is for general information purposes only, and does not constitute a legal opinion or render any legal advice. It may not be relied on for any purpose, and gives rise to
I can see that the OP is not going for a power build. He wants to roleplay an unusual character without being tooo gimped. That's why I accomodated him with my version of his build. I just hope it doesn't break his roleplay too badly. _________________ Logic is a bouquet of beautiful flowers ... that smell bad!
I would give up the idea of 26 Cleric altogether and instead go Cleric20/Barb15/HS5. Grab TR and then use HS bonus feats for ESF: Intimidate and Taunt. Since you'll get your Strength buffs via Rage, take Trickery and Travel, ala The Shifty One-Eyed Terrible Raging War Machine of the One-Eyed Gruumsch (hey, orc chicks did the long titles ) _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Quote: Posted 09/06/08 05:42 (GMT) -- avado He's a newbie!! DOH! It says 2005! Oh well...
If you pay attention, you might notice I registered in 2005 too: October 2005, even later than him (don't know why since I had Baldur's Gate since like 1998 or so, never thought about forums back then. I don't remember exactly when I bought NWN but it was Gold Edition, so it's from before HoTU was out), so that's not enough reason, or are you going to call me noob too?
Quote: LOL i find it humourous that i come across so HARSH! In real life, i am not so much harsh, but blunt! You just cant soften in this format
Strange stuff happens dude.
Quote: Oh, and if you want a TRUE power build, make the ol' superpowered paladin/rdd/assassin! THink of it, dev crit, divin favour, sneaks and tumble too!! Plus you can gain access to your... oops said to much
Wait, that class combination is clearly illegal, what the heck? RDD with no Bard or Sorcerer? teasing newbies is one thing but that's just being mean, he could actually try to make it you know. _________________
Quote: Posted 05/09/08 07:26 (GMT) -- avado
THax, you know i love and respect you, right?
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 09/07/08 05:11
LMAO! k, last time, since i dont want to hijack the OT!
Thax, you said he was new. I guess you didnt hear the TONE of my speaking... LOL
Yeah the rdd thingy.. i woulda posted the ultra uber super secret epic build that i sorta mentioned a few years ago, but alas it is so super secret that i have forgotten it (and yes, it is illegal too. Thats the point! Try to get the new guys thinking outside the box!)
Peace to all! Now i am off to church.... (yes, i am a cleric in real life too ) _________________
I think avado answered your question like no other could...
Quote: Posted 09/06/08 05:42 (GMT) -- avado I just HATE when i see thoughtlessness put into a build. But to waste 8 feats in the name of style.
It was rough as I only took a couple minutes throwing the first one together so I could get a response from you all.
Quote: I have to say that harper and cleric in one build... why?
R/P
Quote: LOL i find it humourous that i come across so HARSH! In real life, i am not so much harsh, but blunt! You just cant soften in this format
I know what you mean, don't worry I didn't take it as bad as you think.
Quote: Posted 09/06/08 07:17 (GMT) -- Empyre65 I can see that the OP is not going for a power build. He wants to roleplay an unusual character without being tooo gimped.
Good looking out .
Quote: That's why I accomodated him with my version of his build. I just hope it doesn't break his roleplay too badly.
Not at all
Quote: Posted 09/06/08 21:41 (GMT) -- grizzled_dwarflord I would give up the idea of 26 Cleric altogether and instead go Cleric20/Barb15/HS5. Grab TR and then use HS bonus feats for ESF: Intimidate and Taunt. Since you'll get your Strength buffs via Rage,
Not a bad Idea at all I'll think about that one.
Quote: take Trickery and Travel, ala The Shifty One-Eyed Terrible Raging War Machine of the One-Eyed Gruumsch
Is it one of your builds or just a name you came up with? (I do like the name/idea but don't have time to page threw the builds)
Quote: (hey, orc chicks did the long titles )
Most chicks like long.. UM.. things...
Quote: Posted 09/06/08 05:42 (GMT) -- avado Oh, and if you want a TRUE power build, make the ol' superpowered paladin/rdd/assassin! THink of it, dev crit, divin favour, sneaks and tumble too!! Plus you can gain access to your... oops said to much
Quote: Posted 09/07/08 05:07 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia Wait, that class combination is clearly illegal, what the heck? RDD with no Bard or Sorcerer? teasing newbies is one thing but that's just being mean, he could actually try to make it you know.
Ain't no way Im not that new .
_________________ Spirit, It is the hero's strength, the mother's resilience, and the poor man's armor. It cannot be broken, and it cannot be taken away. This I must believe. ~ Drizzt Do'Urden
. Not sure if I should be scared of that or not 
. Was it really that bad, I mean isn't it hard to mess up a cleric build? At least thats what i've heard/read. I was expecting some type of comment be it nice or harsh. So yeah anybody, any insight?
.
... 
of course, i did take dev crit with the version i made! 
)
