Thank you for the chance to take part in this active and interesting guild. I would like to make my first post a challenge to Grizzled Dwarflord who is one of my favourite builders. All others are welcome to make contributions to this thread but the theme fits him to a "T" and I'd like his input...
I am looking for a strong Dwarven Cleric build who can mix it up in the front lines and provide healing and buffing at the same time. Knowing the resilience of dwarves this should be a drinking have fun kind of character who can mix it up, take a beating, and still drain a few kegs after the day is through.
The requirements are a serviceable ab and ac, meaning he can solo if he needs to and make dwarves everywhere proud with his success. A strong spell presence with decent degree of undispellable would be appreciated. To be honest I was thinking of something like maybe...
26 cleric, 10 Dwarven Defender, and 4 levels of monk to make a high wisdom advantageous to spells and AC... This opens up the zen archery if that makes it more feasible. But to take words from Dwarflord's Rune Scarred build Clerics are "Diesel Driven" and can toe to toe with best of them. This fellow however will be "Ale Driven" and happily so...
Another thought I had was going mostly cleric and getting enough CON for Epic DR. I do feel that the build might benefit more from some warrior class levels but of course the right build would prove me wrong.
The challenge is set... All are welcome to join in...
Looking forward to all contributions.... Thanks in advance... _________________ The secret to eternal youth is simply in your imagination.
Challenge? here it is, use it, kill everyone and be happy. Next. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Have you looked at Clangeddin's Wrath? He's not undispellable, but he could probably be tweaked to be so. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Thanks gentlemen, both are good builds and worth consideration. I may just have to retract the monk idea as maybe it's not quite my style. Had a monk/defender once, only fought with fists and he ended up doing alright. I Rp'd him off as a bar brawler somewhat a drunken master of sorts. He was fun to play but my dwarves tend to be a bit more warrior drinking types and less dwarf meets Kain and puts the grasshopper in his ale mug and quaffs it all down....
I had seen both of these builds on the build search and considered both I might add. I constantly peruse the build search engine for nifty ideas for new characters.
Cinn, yours is interesting, how would approach making a more cleric focused build without losing a bunch of the melee potential? I must admit when I saw your build I didn't think about trying to tweak it for that good cleric flavour. _________________ The secret to eternal youth is simply in your imagination.
Edited By Nestrial Darkfalcon on 11/10/08 03:22
Quote: I had seen both of these builds on the build search and considered both I might add.
Liar! my Lethal Kama does not appear on the build searcher
If you don't like Monk I have this other build, although I don't remember if the club exploit was corrected on the latest version.
And even though it's meant for drizzled_dwarflord, I'm the builder with the most Dwarven Defender builds in the guild, so I can't avoid a thread like this, you could take a look in the index.
Quote: Had a monk/defender once, only fought with fists and he ended up doing alright
Read my sig _________________
Quote: Posted 12/19/06 19:54 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ
Thax the Shadow Dragon sez: MONKS USE KAMAS. Just ask him.
Oooh, a Dwarflord challenge! How's this?
Clangeddin's Sloshed Ecclesiastic or The Sodden Hammer of Moradin
Special Invis / Improved Invisinility Cat's Grace Stoneskin Divine Power at 3rd, 4th and 5th level casting tiers Undispellable Buffs (save Mord's)
After I sat back and had a look at him, he actually seems pretty playable. Of course, it's really hard to make a bad cleric. He's got the low Dex and Reflex save to represnet his penchant for inebriation. He's got the high Con to represent his capacity for drinking everyone under the table. With a decent AC, Improved Invis, Oodles of HP and Damage Reduction, he should be able to outlast everyone around him, and heal himself spontaneously with little fear of disruption thanks to his high Concentration score, and his huge Listen (or Spot) score helps to keep him Backstab-free. He's not a caster cleric, but more of a meleer-tank cleric who can swing a hammer and slosh a tankard at the same time, and keep a lazy eye on his comrades in case they fall.
Cheers, lad. Thanks for the post. Ended coming up with an off-the-wall yet playable build. The hard part was coming up with the 3rd class. Fighter is a no-brainer when going for EDRs, but we needed something for Tumble to give him that up-front presence in combat where he can wheel about in an unpredictable drunken careening. It's hard to do that when you go Fighter/Cleric because the 3rd class has to be a PrC or face the XP penalties. That left Assassin, SD and Harper. Assassin doesn't make sense, and SD required 13 Dex (not cool), which left Harper. The Harper's Cat Grace covers his 8 Dex and gives him just enough to get 1 to 2 AC while wearing Full Plate. Also allows for some ESFs in Epic along with the Tumble and Listen drops, and it suddenly fits. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
(quote)I had seen both of these builds on the build search and considered both I might add.
"Liar! my Lethal Kama does not appear on the build searcher "
Ahhhh but I did find a link through another build I believe..
"And even though it's meant for drizzled_dwarflord, I'm the builder with the most Dwarven Defender builds in the guild, so I can't avoid a thread like this, you could take a look in the index."
Didn't say you weren't the builder with the most Defender builds... Didn't say Dwarflord was the one with the most either... Taken out of context methinks.
Bottom line is, Grizzled Dwarflord is one of my favourite builders and I am very glad to see he answered my post (with a spiffy drinking dwarf harper to boot), and very happy that you and Cinn answered me too. You all have great builds and I can learn from each of you. Thanks again. _________________ The secret to eternal youth is simply in your imagination.
I think most people are pretty happy with the KD feats, but if I were to play it I would be tempted to drop them to go over the top with HPs and take Toughness and Improved Crit: Hammer, or Toughness and Expertise (to make him last forever in melee), or Silent Spell and Toughness, or Silent Spell and Craft Wand. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Cinn, yours is interesting, how would approach making a more cleric focused build without losing a bunch of the melee potential? I must admit when I saw your build I didn't think about trying to tweak it for that good cleric flavour.
Actually, it's pretty easy:
drop 2 CoT levels pre-epic and take two more CLC levels (CLC 14/FTR 5/CoT 1). You lose a feat, so drop Improved Initiative. If you want Knockdown, drop Empower Spell for it.
In epic levels, drop two more CoT levels and 2 FTR levels and take 4 more CLC levels. This loses you two feats (one CoT bonus feat and one FTR bonus feat), but you gain one back as a CLC bonus feat. You can drop the Armor Skin feat from the last two FTR levels, but you can take it as your CLC level 23 bonus feat. Drop Superior Initiative.
This gives you CLC 24/FTR 10/CoT 6. You lose 2 on all your saves, but your final stats remain the same, and you're undispellable on anything other than a roll of 20.
If you want to be undispellable, then you can do that as well by dropping 2 more CoT levels and taking 2 more CLC levels. You gain back the lost CoT bonus feat at CLC level 26.
The only thing to really watch for is the stat raising, as you'll need to tweak that so you maintain your spell progression as you level your CLC class. At a quick glance, I think you should still be able to pull it off. If you find you can't, post back and I'll see if I can tweak it out for you. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Thanks alot guys!!! I'm glad I finally joined the guild. It's good to interact with you as I have admired your work for some time.
Cinn, that looks good... I may have to do some build testing of each build and see which one fits my style both play and RP-wise.
Dwarflord, thanks alot man... Between your stories and some of your builds that I have enjoyed using I have to say I am glad you jumped at the challenge.
Thax, thanks to you too, hopefully I didn't rub you the wrong way first time you answered one of my posts. The Dwarven Abomination, that's a bit more like my style I think. I don't remember where I saw your Lethal Kama Dwarf but I know I found it as a result of build searching whether it was a thread in another build discussion or maybe a reference somewhere.
It's nice to see that some of the "Big Guns" of the guild are still around offering up cool builds for people like me that don't make the best one ourselves. _________________ The secret to eternal youth is simply in your imagination.
Hi gang, after some encouragement from Avado, I am going to post my Dwarf build which was inspired by this challenge:
Bashy The Holy Town Drunk
Cleric: 27 Fighter: 10 Rogue: 3
Race: Dwarven Alignment: Any (most likely a happy go lucky neutral) Playable: 1-40 PVM and some light PVP (Cleric spells)
Attributes:
STR: 14 INT: 14 WIS: 16 DEX: 10 CON: 16 CHA: 6 (Uses face to clean tavern floors for free ale)
This delightful fellow is destined for a party, his buffing capacity is probably his strong point, however; he can hold his own in a battle. I believe fully buffed and with the right gear he would do alright in some Persistent Worlds.
He was inspired by this challenge. Any advice on where I went wrong or how I could improve on him would be greatly appreciated. _________________ The secret to eternal youth is simply in your imagination.
FIrst, you wasted the first feat! DOH! The logic is this, you get the martial feat for FREE with fighter, so why take that feat as a cleric? Instead, move ONE lvl of fighter to lv 1 or 2. Much more efficient.
next, 3 levels of rogue? what does 3 lvls of a class that GIVES YOU XP PENALTY give that a prc class cant (which WONT give you the penalty)?
With a cleric, and this has been discuissed ad nosium on this forum, imvho, you should stay at 3/5 ab progression thru lv 20. Casting div fav + div power gives you 10 to ab, and div power gives you +5 to each attack OR 3 with the 4th at FULL ab. IF you want to do ftr/clr pre, make it 17c.3 ftr and you still get the 4th at full ab.
because you are not a str cleric, the expt/imp expt imho are wasted feats. With a cleric, when you go imp expt you loose 10 and can gain 10 so you are essentially the same ab-wise, BUT the ab needs all the boosting you can get. Its up to you, but with a cleric, you will find that expertise isnt really needed.
Another rookie mistak (i did it in my builds early on too) is to WASTE epic feat slots on pre-epic feats. What does zen archery give you at lv 36? at that point, you will find that you have become so imbedded in castin and killin that a long range attack will never occur. You are a DWARF! Get in and fight. Called shot... leave it for the bowers, imo. i have NEVER used that feat in my 5 years of playing.
Why do you end the build with 2 rogue? At that point you are far too long to gain much (and have put up with xp penalty for what?). Most people, when building with this kind of combo, use Rogue for SKILL dumps. When you do this, the norm is to put them at lv 7, 12, 17, etc. why? when you start a char you get lv+3 to max a skill. At lv 7, you have max skil of 10. Most people are lookin (from rog) for Tumble boosts to ac. Taking more than *0 (with a dex of 10) is waste.
Stats.. dex, leave at 8! You are in full and tower. that gives 1 to con, 17 con means you have one fewer to worry about later on.
22 wis vs 20 wis or even 19 wis doesnt give much difference. You are not a caster cleric (otherwise you would have wis 30+).
in my opinion, you are trying to be a jack of all trades, master of none. Clerics do this really well. The secret of clerics though, is they are godly without trying to be. It appears you are trying to make a Damage sink! One where he can take a lickn and keep on fighting. So, stick to that theme! Pump con as much as possible! Take Epic toughness (and toughness (WHAT YOU missed the essential dwarf feat!!).
FOr your tumble class, look to assassy, or Harper scout!! ohh that might be fun. OR, look to replace fighter with COT, makin cleric/cot/rog3. COT is a nice cleric option because their bonus feats in epic open gr wisdom (for a caster cleric option). YOu wont get epic ws nor ws, but i never missed them! Though with non-str cleric, it sounds like a good option.
I hope i have opend your eyes alittle. there is more to building but i think i have covered some basics... next _________________
Well, avado covered most of the issues here, I'll add that Clerics don't use Zen Archery unless you're a spellcaster heavily WIS-based, Darkfire alone makes me grab a weapon and forget the bow, you'll notice how true that is after a while. Called Shot is not that useful for meleers, take Knockdown instead, it's better. But don't listen to everything avado said, Harper Scout is a BAD idea, you need to waste 2 feats to qualify for Harper Scout, so forget it. Replacing Fighter with Champion of Torm is something I wouldn't advice, Epic Weapon Specialization is quite useful, at least I prefer it. On the other hand, Assassin is nice to avoid XP penalty, the skill requirement is not that heavy.
I've got to say, I don't like your stat distribution, it's very awkward, I mean why 22 WIS? is there a reason? any? your combat stat is STR, so increase it as much as possible when your other stats are done, 19 WIS and 21 CON is all you need for spells and EDR, any further is worse than raising STR.
If it were my build I'd drop DEX to 8 and INT to 12 to start with 18 CON, start raising WIS up to 19 and then CON, you will get 21 CON at level 24 without wasting an epic feat for Great CON and you will also be able to take EDR starting at level 24. After you take Epic Focus, Prowess and Specialization, leave all the rest for Great STR and you should be able to end with about 20 STR (the build I mentioned ends with 22 STR, and it's harder to manage stats there as you can't lower DEX on a DwD, so your build spread should be capable of more STR as it has a good deal of Fighter levels to take bonus feats freeing regular feats for Great Strength). But that's only if you want your build to hit harder, even if the build is thought as a tank, STR is your melee combat stat, so raise it man.
Also, once you reach epic levels and good enough spells, it's more important to take Fighter levels fast for epic bonus feats, since epic Cleric levels won't give you almost any power as a buffer. I would even lower Cleric to 23 and raise a bit more Fighter instead just so you can take all the EDRs in bonus feats and net a higher amount of Great STR. _________________
Quote: Posted 05/09/08 07:26 (GMT) -- avado
THax, you know i love and respect you, right?
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 11/21/08 01:42
lol! thanks for backin me up on that thax. Oh and thanks for the new sig! _________________
Glad to be of service, I wrote it specially to counter Finn's quote on your other sig. _________________
Quote: Posted 07/28/06 23:16:09 (GMT) -- Big Meph Using the 2 ESF's in a dex based sneak build, to me, just looks like you're teasing your diabetic opponent with extra sugar on your whipcream covered chocolate mudcake.
Quote: Posted 11/20/08 17:01 (GMT) -- avado
FOr your tumble class, look to assassy, or Harper scout!! ohh that might be fun. OR, look to replace fighter with COT, makin cleric/cot/rog3. COT is a nice cleric option because their bonus feats in epic open gr wisdom (for a caster cleric option). YOu wont get epic ws nor ws, but i never missed them! Though with non-str cleric, it sounds like a good option.
avado and Thax make some nice points. Fighter isnt his problem here with the XP penalties, as it is the favored class of Dwarves, so the Cleric/CoT/Rogue split wouldnt solve that problem. I realize that it is very tempting for every build to have some Rogue dump levels, but it isnt always needed. I think the Harper Scout could be interesting. Maybe a Cleric 25/Fighter 10/Harper Scout 5 split? I dont picture this guy as being Evil, so I wouldnt consider the Assassin route. I would probably just forget the Rogue levels and go Cleric 26/Fighter 4/CoT 10, but thats just more my kind of build. If XP penalties dont bother you, you should atleast go Cleric 26/Fighter 10/Rogue 4 and spread out the Rogue levels at say levels 7, 17, 27, and 37. Thanks for sharing your build.
In my experience. clerics are plenty poweful enough to eat an XP penalty without blinking. In the case of a dwarven cleric, I think it's worth it. That said, I would take far fewer fighter and rogue levels. 2/3 is probably ideal. I'd also hold off on that first rogue level until at least 22nd. This is, of course, influenced by the environment in which I play, but, I'm just sayin', if anyone can eat an XP penalty, it's a dwarven cleric...
Thanks guys,
I knew my build would get alot of suggestions as I am truly not a good builder. My first few years playing NWN I was one of those roleplayers that built for theme forgot about power and playability. Now as I keep playing I find myself struggling to find more ability to solo as some pw's are not so plentifully populated as they once were. I also find that I can enjoy soloing areas that I feel I can handle after a long day at work.
With that said, thank you for the suggestions, I will try to learn from my mistakes. I have raided the build search engine for good builds to play solo but find myself wanting to be able to create them myself. Between learning to build and getting more strategic at soloing it will be a challenge. Anyone got a free school open for attentive students? _________________ The secret to eternal youth is simply in your imagination.
Quote: Posted 11/21/08 15:32 (GMT) -- Nestrial Darkfalcon Anyone got a free school open for attentive students?
World of Greyhawk. If you log on there, you'll soon learn to build and use good tactics. _________________ Where I'm playing now: World of Greyhawk.
Quote: Posted 11/21/08 17:20 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Quote: Posted 11/21/08 15:32 (GMT) -- Nestrial Darkfalcon Anyone got a free school open for attentive students?
World of Greyhawk. If you log on there, you'll soon learn to build and use good tactics.
Well, either that or you'll spend all your time sleeping with the fishies.
I had a quick look at the link Cinn, seems like a tough world with low magic. Is it one of those ones where you start with a dagger and a loin cloth with barely enough gold for a bath? _________________ The secret to eternal youth is simply in your imagination.
I had a quick look at the link Cinn, seems like a tough world with low magic. Is it one of those ones where you start with a dagger and a loin cloth with barely enough gold for a bath?
Well, a wee bit more, and early on for a new player can be kinda rough, but it isn't really that nasty.
For the record, you start w/ 1000 gold, and several goodies, including three custom CLW pots. For anyone but full plate tanks, this is plenty of gold to get going. For full plate wearers, you're just going to have to start w/ half plate until you can get some more gold in your pockets.
I'd say WoG is mid magic. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
And it seems that several of this guild's members play there. That's a plus, kinda feel like I know some of you already.
I may just have to check it out. I saw the death penalties weren't outrageous either. That's a plus when going somewhere you haven't played, because Murphy's Law states that you'll find the one hit one kill critters by accident. _________________ The secret to eternal youth is simply in your imagination.
Quote: Posted 11/22/08 18:50 (GMT) -- Nestrial Darkfalcon That's a plus when going somewhere you haven't played, because Murphy's Law states that you'll find the one hit one kill critters by accident.
As opposed to once you know the place, and you find the one hit kill critters on purpose... WoG gives new meaning to "death is part of life." Even once you know what to expect, you're still gonna take some dirtnaps. I suppose that's a big part of what we like. It aint no cakewalk.
that reminds me...
Gotta get back to WoG soon. Wonder how that would be these days. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Thanks gentlemen, both are good builds and worth consideration. I may just have to retract the monk idea as maybe it's not quite my style. Had a monk/defender once, only fought with fists and he ended up doing alright. I Rp'd him off as a bar brawler somewhat a drunken master of sorts. He was fun to play but my dwarves tend to be a bit more warrior drinking types and less dwarf meets Kain and puts the grasshopper in his ale mug and quaffs it all down.... 
Glad to be of service, I wrote it specially to counter Finn's quote on your other sig.