I have been considering a Paladin/Monk/Druid for some time now. Obviously, I used the search engine first to see if there were any. Sir Smokesalot was the only one to come up, but he's no longer legal since you need at least 18 Druid levels for DS, right?
I'm not a fan of the CoT for Druid builds because of the requirements and the fact that you must start as a druid and therefore lose some pre-epic AB.
I was thinking more of a Dragon with MAX AB and high saves, something kind of like this:
*This is supposed to be a level 40 build, but with a few adjustments it could be playable all along (although you'd suffer early on for sure)
Paladin (20) / Druid (18) / Monk (2)
RACE: Human
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Good (change to Lawful Neutral at level 20)
STARTING STATS:
STR 14 DEX 8 CON 10 WIS 16 INT 14 CHA 14
ENDING STATS: (all stat points going to Wisdom, except the two last ones, which go to Charisma)
STR 14 DEX 8 CON 10 WIS 30 INT 14 CHA 16
BAB: 30
AB (naked): 32
HP (naked): 400
AC (naked, unbuffed): 29
LEVELING:
1-20 Paladin for Max BAB (Change alignment) 21-37 Druid 38 Monk 39 Druid 40 Monk
FEATS
1- Power Attack, Knockdown 3- Toughness 6- Divine Shield 9- Divine Might 12- Improved Knockdown 15- Improved Critical (Unarmed) 18- Extra Smiting 21- Great Wisdom I 24- Great Wisdom II 27- Great Wisdom III 30- Great Wisdom IV 33- Great Wisdom V 36- Great Wisdom VI 39- Dragon Shape
Fortitude - 25 (33 vs spells) Reflex - 18 (26 vs spells, evasion) Will - 29 (37 VS spells)
Buffable by 4 each with Aura of Glory + Eagle's Splendor
STRENGTHS:
Dragon with MAX BAB Good buffs Excellent saves All of his combat feats work in Dragon Shape XP penalty only at level 38
WEAKNESSES:
No metamagic feats / poor spellbook maneuverability Dispellability issues (low caster levels) Very weak early levels DS only at 39th level
So, what do you think, guys?
Take it EZ!
For starters, make your Subject something useful.
Since when is the requirements for CoT more difficult than an alignment change?
Are you certain that it would be "weak at early levels?" I'd think it would be okay during its paladin days and start seriously lagging once you start taking druid levels.
I wouldn't call your saves "excellent" either.
My conclusion (and I don't claim to be an expert) is that there's little point to trying to create a "Max BAB" dragon shape character. More druid levels would be better than bothering with paladin, as would druid/CoT/monk. I doubt the comparison is even close.
Well, the only problem is that one problem that makes me not play a build: it only works until level 39. If you can live with that, then you're fine.
I've toyed with the Paladin / Druid / Monk and I find it is a lot more fun to forget about BAB whenever you play Druids, a Druid/Monk still makes 5 APR and hits decently and it's the most playable way to play a shifter IMO. I've found alignment shifts to be quite annoying lately...
Alrigth here's the thing: your build is a level 40 build already, even with shifts or cheese in early epics, the wildshapes are only nice and useful early on, so you'll use this build as a level 40. Since that has been checked, your stats can be improved a bit. You don't need 10 CON, the "extra playability" it grants having more HP won't happen in a level 40 build and it will be useless once you're shifted, so start with 8 CON and 15 CHA. Since you have 15 CHA, you don't need to spend two stat increases into charisma to reach 16, just one, the last one, so that frees up Great Wisdom VI in order to take Epic Prowess and still round up 30 WIS at level 36 and 16 CHA at level 40. Net loss zero, net gain +1 AB.
Toughness will become very worthless once you shift into a dragon, you'll get a crazy CON score of 32 and +100 HP for shifting, so drop Toughness and find something better, Extend Spell, Empower Spell, whatever you like, Paladins can take metamagics, that's no big deal. I don't believe in smiting either, so I'd drop that one as well, but that's your style I guess.
Other than that, there's not much to change, in order to keep the BAB the spread becomes very stiff. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
@ The Supreme Force
It will start weak because of the low strength and dexterity. It won't hit as often and will get hit more often even with a full plate. After a while it'll get better because the BAB will grow constantly and magic items will help with AC.
To stop the "lag" you talked about, you could take the 21st level of Monk and then go druid to the 39th, but that will give XP penalties, so it's a lose lose situation
@ Thax
I liked most of your suggestions, as usual. The level split is kind of ungrateful, but still playable given you get some magic items to compensate your weaknesses until you can get DS. I could get rid of toughness and constitution just because it's not a level 1-40 build, but I don't really like the reason. Besides, in Human shape I'd be too weak. I prefer keeping my CON at 10 because if I ever do decide to play this guy (although alignment change does suck) he will stand more of a chance. Toughness is expendable, as is Extra Smiting.
I could get rid of Toughness for Expertise and of Extra Smiting for Improved Expertise without losing playability. That way I'd increase My AC to 82 while in DS and with Blood Frenzy on, not bad . I'm still thinking if I shouldn't include Disarm and Improved Disarm instead of those 2 feats. The possibilities are endless.
Take it EZ!
Quote: Posted 12/28/08 19:02 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane I could get rid of Toughness for Expertise and of Extra Smiting for Improved Expertise without losing playability.
I agree with dropping Extra Smiting 1000%. Smiting just isn't that great unless it's... well, Great Smiting. Three smites on your build is a whopping 60 damage.
Taking the monk level there wouldn't address the "lag" at all.
Perhaps someone with more wisdom than I have will correct me, but I wouldn't play the build. It doesn't seem particularly effective at any point, nor is it all that RP friendly.
*scratches his head* Another 3 base class build... what on earth is happening!!! You realize you dont and shouldnt take a class to fill out levels, right?
A paladin/druid! *faints* What the heck is next? Pal/druid/BG dragon build? LOL
I have to ask, what does Paladin give you that cant be done by another class (to avoid alignment shift)? Is not having 20+ druid a smart thing? I dont know. imho, i think you should go back and rethink what you want. but dont listne to me.. _________________
Well, you do get a neat BAB plus Divine Might (by the way, Divine Shield is useless for dragons, they have Dodge AC capped so it will add nothing), so the ending unbuffed AB will end above 50, which is higher than most dragons, taking into accout that AB is quite hard to buff with shifter builds. Druids can buff STR pretty decently, but that's as far as a regular dragon can buff his AB. Of course the Cleric buffs great as demonstrated by Kail's build, but given the duration of some buffs, a high BAB is much desired.
Aside from the good points, it's a build I wouldn't play. Level 40 dragons can be posted but they're very inneffective if you want to play them for real. My Assassin dragon is extremely unplayable (man did I had a hard time leveling that thing up) and I still posted it I didn't get such harsh critics about it just for being a level 40 dragon even though his AB is much lower than this one. In my opinion, the best high BAB dragon is the Ranger version with Bane of Enemies, since the Animal Companion really helps in the low levels and th final damage is superb but the nicer dragon to play is the Champion of Torm. In the end any dragon can put up a good fight, so there's nothing wrong in making a Paladin dragon. I just don't agree with this not being posted as a level 40 build and therefore not taking advantage that it doesn't has to be playable at all in order to boost the final stats, even if it's just a little. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 12/29/08 03:08
@ avado
Come on man! now you're just picking on me because I'm a noob in the guild. Please tell me that you don't mean what you just said. I specifically said that the intention of going paladin was of getting a MAX BAB Dragon. Thax is WAY OFF when he says this guy's buffed AB in dragon form is above 50. It's 65 (tested it myself). Here are some of the stats in Dragon Shape:
STR 56 DEX 40 CON 38 INT 14 WIS 39 CHA 24
AB: 65
Attacks: 65/62/59/56/53/50 (without smite evil, which means an extra +7 to attack rolls and +20 to damage if the target is evil)
Saves (Fort/Ref/Will):
44/39/39
AC: 72 (It's worth to mention that I was naked when I shifted, so no items merged)
HP: 1068/960
@ Everyone else
This is NOT a roleplaying build. I agree with you 100% that this is S*** for roleplaying purpose. I know I said I'm a Roleplaying kind of guy, and that remains true, but I've been looking at lots of builds lately, and having ideas for them. This is the only reason I posted this.
I would like to say that I'm a little disappointed at avado's reactions. Am I doing something wrong, breaking some rule or something? Because, really, I do appreciate constructive criticism A LOT! But just senseless criticism and antagonism for no reason at all... You're not even looking at the build and criticising certain aspects of it, like Thax and The Supreme Force, you're just criticising THE FACT that I created this build, and yet I did not see you do the same in Midthrates' Sir Smokesalot build. Why is that, I wonder?
@ Thax
Divine shield will replace the 1 AC lost from Blood Frenzy, so technically it does do something, although not much
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 12/29/08 10:27
I'm sorry, only now have I noticed that Thax was talking about unbuffed AB, so please disregard the AB comment.
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 12/29/08 10:52
Hey guys, just thought of a nice RP dressing for this character. He would be something like my aunt, who is a really good person, and has 17 dogs in her house. A Paladin who loses his faith in humanity, and finds refuge in nature. Animals don't lie, cheat, decieve, they're always pure, loyal, devoted. That's what my aunt says. She says that it pains her more to see a dead animal than a dead human being. Methinks it's a good argument, even for the alignment change
PS: just checked, unbuffed AB for Dragon Shape 53
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 12/29/08 13:24
@ Thax
A Ranger Dragon could be more playable (although I really doubt it) but the final strength is not even comparable. Ranger buffs are worthless, while Paladin has VERY NEAT ones. As a Paladin, I get Prayer, Aid, Bless, Divine Favor, Death Ward, and for Human Form I get GMW and Holy Sword. It's not even close. The only Cleric AB Buffs I don't get are Battletide and Divine Power (which is useless since I have MAX AB). Plus I get a Healing Dragon that can remove disease .
On a side note, I have decided to drop Extra Smiting and Toughness and go with Expertise and Improved Expertise, very useful to keep you alive and to keep you safe while you buff up.
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 12/29/08 14:00
The final strength is always the same since the dragon always gets 48. A Druid with Empowered Bull's Strength, Extended Blood Frenzy and Extended Aura of Vitality (Extended is not needed, just better) caps STR up to 60, so whatever third class makes no difference in STR. The thing with the Ranger is playability from the Animal Companion and Bane of Enemies heavy damage addition, which is passive, so it's a lot more useful that smite.
Really playing dragons, you'll usually won't have Divine Favor on, its duration is so low.
I do hope you tested the AB with the feedback rolls. Many people don't know that the charcter sheet values are extremely wrong when it comes to shifted stats. Dragons get a bonus since the claw is +6 weapon I think but they get another -2 penalty for being size huge or something near that. Fuzzy stuff happens, the real thing is I never memorized all the stuff, just don't ever use the charcter sheet to read AB on a dragon. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Quote: Posted 12/29/08 10:17 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
@ avado
Come on man! now you're just picking on me because I'm a noob in the guild. Please tell me that you don't mean what you just said. I specifically said that the intention of going paladin was of getting a MAX BAB Dragon.
My only question was, What does Paladin give you that other full AB class doesnt to AVOID alignment shift? Paladin has relatively short term buffs, and charisma buffs, and the rest are useless. I was hopin for a more potent answer than Max ab. oh well _________________
Quote: -- Posted by Kail Pendragon
Being hyperbolic is an integral part of Avado's being
@ Thax
I used the combat log, My AB is correct. I found out another unexpected plus in this build: the high Wisdom score gives you waaaay more Paladin spells. I think I have like 5 Lvl 4 spells in this build. Which will make you not as weak in human form and very strong in DS. Perhaps I should get rid of Toughness and Extra Smiting and get Empower Spell and Extend Spell. Like I said, the possibilities are endless. I know that Divine Favor sucks, but it works for the first 10 rounds . It's always the last spell I cast.
@ avado
The alignment change is a ***, I know that, but I really like this build regardless. Even more now because of the "story" (more like a general guideline reason) for the alignment change. A Paladin that loses his faith in humanity and clings to animals is cool IMO. And come on now, if I add Extend Spell and Empower Spell, my spellbook usage will improve much and my good buffs (like Prayer, Blood Frenzy, Aura of Vitality, even Aid and Bless) will last twice as much . You may not like the fact that you need to change alignments, but you can't deny the strength of this build. With Extend Spell and Empower Spell It'll probably stand toe to toe with any Druid / Monk / Champion of Torm build. I might even risk to say that it could be a little better because of the extra BAB and buffs. It does lack feats, but if you care that much about feats, go fighter instead of Paladin. As for me, I LOVE Paladins, especially Paladin spells. They are THE BEST non-caster buffing spells in the game! If I have to switch alignments, then so be it, as long as there's a reason.
BTW: I downloaded the CBC, but I couldn't find Weapon Proficiency (Exotic) anywhere! Is it incomplete?
Take it EZ!
Quote: by Maximilian Kane I LOVE Paladins, especially Paladin spells. They are THE BEST non-caster buffing spells in the game!
Oh damn it, you said it. You shouldn't have said that, I mean you really shouldn't have said that, and especially not intended to avado. Lord, is he going to get crazy like a mad cow when he reads that. I can foresee his answer, almost as if it were mine. The ludicrous statement of even thinking Paladin's buffs are any near a match to a Cleric's, which I wouldn't call a caster class, more like a jack of all trades which can kill you with swords or spells just the same. Only low BAB classes such as Wizard, Pale Master and Sorcerer should be branded as caster classes, because if you classify Cleric as a caster class then you're left with comparing Paladin with Ranger, and when you compare just two classes any statement like "THE BEST non-caster" becomes excessively useless or almost wrong.
Well, anyways, IMO Paladin's buffs only beat Ranger's, or classes with no buffs, which is ridiculous to compare. For some uses I also prefer them maybe to Bard's, but it's highly debatable, especially if you're not using the Holy Sword (there's no holy claw, too bad), the one big buff that makes Paladin's spells actually powerful. Druid, Cleric, Wizard and Sorcerer get better buffs. The good thing is you've already got Druid. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
I think it's fair to call a cleric a caster class. Yeah, they can do a lot of meleeing with that casting, but it's still a caster. I don't think it's fair to say that pallys have the best spells of a non-caster. Bard gets that award. Pally's come in second, but as pointed out, second out of three, with ranger being the loser, aint very impressive.
Also, Divine Favor rocks. Simply rocks. It might even be the best spell in the game, that is, if you take into consideration that it's a first level spell. Two turns when extended should be plenty to get ya through a good battle, and if it isn't, oh no, you have to recast... Great spell. Great, great spell.
@ Thax
I would consider a caster class one that has 9th level spells. You really cannot compare 9 levels of spells VS just 4. So yeah, I was referring to Bards, Rangers and Paladins. And since when will I refrain from saying something because of fear of what avado will have to say about it? He'll probably be blunt anyway.
OH! And Holy Claw would be AWESOME!
@ onion eater
Bards have 6 spell levels and some OK buffs, in my list they would come second to paladin because they can't buff damage and AB that much (Bull's Strength and Greater Magic Weapon, both of which Paladin also has, War Cry and Keen Edge). Pally still gets Divine Favor (which by itself is already better than War Cry and Keen Edge put together), Prayer, Bless, Aid. There's really no comparison, and yeah, Extended Divine Favor Rocks! The only reason I wouldn't call it THE BEST of all spells is the True Strike, Time Stop combo. That's just not right .
Bard does have better defensive buffs, and if that was the subject I'd agree with you.
* In the specific case of this build I get my defensive buffs from Druid spells
I have decided to drop Toughness and Extra Smiting for Extend Spell and Empower Spell, and that's final. I think I'll now seek a creative name for this build and post it.
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 12/30/08 10:26
Divine Favour doesn't do much in this build since you can't recast it while shifted.
Also, I think the point people are trying to make is if (Cleric > Paladin); then (Cleric/Druid > Paladin/Druid); _________________
Quote: meatpimp
Pish tosh. We should now turn our attention to those dastardly devices that actually TIE one's body to the vehicle. No thank you, I prefer to have inertia throw my body clear of an accident, kindly.
@ FinneousPJ
I know, man, but if that were the case, everyone would just play sorcerers, because Socerer > all. I like my Paladin Dragon very much and wouldn't switch to Cleric here.
Cleric can have more AB for a number of rounds, but is dispellable and if dispelled they're pretty much useless with their pre-epic 15 BAB. And with the new 18 minimum Druid levels to get DS, The most you get is Cleric 21 (providing you get the Monk CHEESE, which is a MUST in any Max Wisdom build).
My Dragon, even unbuffed is quite decent. 53 AB completely unbuffed and naked is respectable, I reckon. I'm not trying to create The Uberest Dragon of all times, but my build is certainly stronger than others I have seen. The choice, since my original idea was making a Max BAB Dragon, would be basically between Fighter, Ranger or Paladin, and from these choices, IMO Paladin is the best one.
The alignment change is still stinky, but now that I came up with that pseudo-story I'm very much at ease with it.
Extended Divine Favor does miracles. If you can't finish a fight with 20 rounds of +5 magical damage and +5 attack, you probably won't be able to finish that fight at all.
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 12/30/08 12:22
The "problem" with the RP explanation you keep mentioning is that I'm pretty sure the Paladin would lose his Paladinhood at that point, and the powers that go with it.
I really don't care. RP how you like (especially since there's no NWN mechanic for fallen paladins), but I felt the urge to point that out after you kept referencing your RP justification story.
It's a good lvl 40 build. And yes, it does have some advantages over Clc. _________________
Quote: meatpimp
Pish tosh. We should now turn our attention to those dastardly devices that actually TIE one's body to the vehicle. No thank you, I prefer to have inertia throw my body clear of an accident, kindly.
@ The Supreme Force
I could go on an atonement mission at level 39 and regain my Paladinhood, but then I'd lose my Druidhood . Crap! There's no way out, we're surrounded!!!
Show some respect for my auntie!! This character is based on a true story!!!
@ FinneousPJ
I shall post it on the completed build forum now, yes? I hope I'm "playing by the book" now
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 12/30/08 20:40
@ FinneousPJ
Hey, I sent you a message about my other character about 4 days ago. I'd really appreciate it if you could answer me soon so I know what I'm supposed to do. If you don't, I'll have to assume you don't intend to and therefore I'll do whatever I feel is best regarding my first posted character. I am trying to do things the "lawful" way here, and it would really help if you gave me some answers. Sorry for giving you extra work, but I'm a fast learner and soon you won't have to worry about me anymore.
Thanks
ROFLMAO!
Thax, thanks for having my back. I am waiting for this guy to claim that Harper scout is the UBEREST class of them all... oh wait, he doesnt like PRC's and he plays only solo mods, so maybe he's right.
My question was never answered. You claim to want a "max" ab dragon? Cleric/druid would have given so much more. Oh... cleric is 3/4 bab? ROFLMAO! I think a dragon with 40/35/30/40 ab is MUCH better than a dragon with 40/35/30/25 ab, but what do i know. Now, if you have a haste item, 40/35/30/40/40 beats 40/35/30/25/40.
The alignment change isnt worth it, imo, since there are so many other options. To use div fav with dragon.. one turn! OH and you get 3 dragons... hmm. The other useful pal buffs are for charisma! wooot, the rest, the cleric has and can do better.
If you ever have any doubts regarding clerics, its cuz you dont know. Its ok, i have walked a player around showing and explaining the EXACT strats for using clerics, and he still didnt get it. SO it is ok that a newbie wouldnt get it.
I am beginning to wonder though...
Quote: Posted 12/30/08 12:20 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
Cleric can have more AB for a number of rounds, but is dispellable and if dispelled they're pretty much useless with their pre-epic 15 BAB. And with the new 18 minimum Druid levels to get DS, The most you get is Cleric 21 (providing you get the Monk CHEESE, which is a MUST in any Max Wisdom build).
Funny, in the 6 years or so that i have played some pretty TOUGH pw's i have YET to loose Div power... ok, maybe one time! But you are a DRAGON! It hurts so bad to hear that clerics are useless without buffs! ANd this is from an solo modist! LOL
The more i read, the funnier this gets. _________________
I think avado answered your question like no other could...
Edited By avado on 12/31/08 06:21
Quote: by Maximilian Kane And since when will I refrain from saying something because of fear of what avado will have to say about it? He'll probably be blunt anyway.
Heh, truth be told, the joke was really between avado and me, because I know how he loves and worships Clerics, you just helped with the random comment
Quote: by onion eater Also, Divine Favor rocks. Simply rocks. It might even be the best spell in the game, that is, if you take into consideration that it's a first level spell. Two turns when extended should be plenty to get ya through a good battle, and if it isn't, oh no, you have to recast... Great spell. Great, great spell.
I dare you to recast Divine Favor with a dragon build in the middle of combat. What dragons like are long-term buffs, or else it becomes very annoying. The only reason I de-shift is to cast Heal, since de-shifting somehow is not counted as an action and doesn't waste a turn. De-shifting for any other reason in the midst of battle can get you killed.
Quote: by avado Oh... cleric is 3/4 bab? ROFLMAO! I think a dragon with 40/35/30/40 ab is MUCH better than a dragon with 40/35/30/25 ab, but what do i know. Now, if you have a haste item, 40/35/30/40/40 beats 40/35/30/25/40.
You're outdated avado. In the new version the extra attacks do not add at max AB, they work like an extra hand attak (or whatever it's called, I visualize it like a second off-hand), so when you stack Haste with Divine Power's extra APR you'd get 40/35. Also, he's a monk, so he'd get a third one from Flurry of Blows, working such as 40/37/34/31/28 and the extra is 40/35/30 (that's how it worked if I remember correctly, the extra doesn't work like Monk progression) for a Hasted with Divine Power and Flurry of Blows, assuming the first hit is +42 (taking into account Flurry of Blows' -2). Since the BAB is not dependent on a low duration buff, Divine Power is worse that high BAB IMO when it comes to using it with a dragon.
Quote: by avado Thax, thanks for having my back. I am waiting for this guy to claim that Harper scout is the UBEREST class of them all... oh wait, he doesnt like PRC's and he plays only solo mods, so maybe he's right.
If you tell him what he shouldn't do then he'll never fall for it! you just sent it at to hell with that comment. Next time a new guy comes around, I'm in charge of not spilling the beans, you're fired.
Talking seriously though, you shouldn't take avado so seriously Max, he says a lot of crap (I keep up with his rant pretty often, and he keeps up with mine as well, so when we're addresing each other you can expect like 90% to be a joke) and forgets that builds are not meant to be replaced all with Clerics and Clerics and Clerics. He's right many times that Clerics own and all the drill but you can't let it get to you, I've seen legions and legions (nah, like 2 or 3) of builders getting depressed or hateful after reading avado's mean critics. I suspect he uses the guild as hate therapy that's why he bashes at people. He's a good builder when it comes down to it, but nobody ever said that being able to make a strong build makes you tolerant and sociable. Just keep building and ignore him _________________
Quote: Posted 05/09/08 07:26 (GMT) -- avado
THax, you know i love and respect you, right?
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 12/31/08 07:59
@ avado
Yeah, I get it, you're a Cleric lover. But the fact remains that after the new patch the most Cleric levels you could get on a Dragon build is 21 (again, given you take the monk cheese). That means only one thing: you're easily dispellable, and since Clerics rely on buffs A LOT, that's a HUGE deal. I know cuz this guy is dispellable as well. I faced a Dracolich in the training mod, and it kept dispelling me over and over. But even dispelled, this guy can do A LOT of damage. And it still remains as I said, the only AB buff that this guy dosn't have compared to Clerics is Battletide, which is subject to Spell Resistance anyhow. I'm sure there are thousands of good builds for Cleric usage, but this isn't one of them IMO. Don't think you know more than anyone else because you play on PWs. You do know more than me, but that's not the reason for it. I just now have started to study the rules with depth, that's why.
Perhaps you'll like my next build, it's a remake of Thax's Magical Master, and has Cleric in it, although I suspect you won't since it also has 3 base classes. Don't worry though, I shall make a PrC build shortly to placate your suffering
@ Thax
Perhaps avado himself is a Cleric that worships the Cleric god. And don't worry, he won't get to me. I still think it's possible to create good builds without including Cleric, despite what avado says.
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 12/31/08 10:19
Quote: Posted 12/31/08 10:08 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane ...the most Cleric levels you could get on a Dragon build is 21... That means only one thing: you're easily dispellable...
That's not what I'd call "easily" dispellable. You're dispellable, and this may, or may not, be an issue. Dispelling is really highly enviornmental. There are many places where one can almost never worry about dispelling. In such places cleric15-20 builds really rock. If dispelling is a huge concern, then yes, get up to 26 levels. In any event, one shouldn't assume that dispelling is a problem, unless, of course, if they play where I play, or somewhere like it...
Quote: Perhaps avado himself is a Cleric that worships the Cleric god.
Hey, that might be right. It's totally possible under third ed rules...
Quote: I still think it's possible to create good builds without including Cleric, despite what avado says.
Sure, there are good builds without cleric levels. Trouble is, a lot of the time, they'd be better as clerics.
I think we have another Cleric lover here . The thing is that for me a build is a concept. Sometimes adding Cleric will break that concept, like in this case. Having a MAX pre-epic BAB Dragon is only possible through Fighter, Ranger and Paladin, as I said, and Paladin seems like the best choice if you can live with the alignment change. And you can't go Cleric 26 on a Dragon build anymore. If I want to make a good Cleric Dragon, all I need to do is copy-paste Kail's Order of Jormungandr and make the proper alterations to make it legal. Alas, that is not my intention, I'll leave that to him.
Take it EZ!
What about barbarian?
True, I don't really like Barb though, probably prejudice, since the only "useful" thing he gets is rage, and druids have Blood Frenzy. That's why I didn't even consider it. Do you have any links to good Barbarian builds? I'd like to see them if possible
Talking seriously though, you shouldn't take avado so seriously Max, he says a lot of crap (I keep up with his rant pretty often, and he keeps up with mine as well, so when we're addresing each other you can expect like 90% to be a joke) and forgets that builds are not meant to be replaced all with Clerics and Clerics and Clerics. He's right many times that Clerics own and all the drill but you can't let it get to you, I've seen legions and legions (nah, like 2 or 3) of builders getting depressed or hateful after reading avado's mean critics. I suspect he uses the guild as hate therapy that's why he bashes at people. He's a good builder when it comes down to it, but nobody ever said that being able to make a strong build makes you tolerant and sociable. Just keep building and ignore him
OUtdated? yeah. I honestly havent played the game in a LONNNG time. My daughter is one reason. My wife is the other. And i think, after 6 years, i have grown tired. PRC had my attention for a time cuz it allows for some SICK designs. Alas, that now is gone too (i WILL NOT play solo mods!) I actually FORGOT that it wasnt bioware, but the pRC that changed ema from 5/5/5/5 to +20 armor AC! You know you are old when...
Thanks for the compliment. I havent put an idea together, outside of PRC in quite some time. I played ALOT in my day with one Stryder Blade. A dude that no one around here knows, but is one of the strongest builders i have ever seen, Griz included. It was he that held my interest in this game for the past 2 years, and now he's retired, so...
In truth, i do dislike the idea of lv 40 builds. THey show NO creativity. I mean, a monkey can put one together. Take a look at my 2nd version of Dev crit dragon (just put up under PRC section of this guild under avado's prcs). That took a whole freakin hour to figure out to get the skills to work right. In my opinion, that is a skill. Taking 3 base classes, which require alignment changes AT THE MOST, requires absolutly no pre thought at all. When i started, i threw a few builds together that stunk! And i posted them! lol. Live and learn.
I was thinking about what bugged me about the pal/druid dragon. It isnt a true max ab build. It IS a bab30 build, but so what. For many pw's, the alignment change makes it impossible. it takes creativity to design a build that DOESNT require alignment shifts. Any monkey can build a decent paladin/barb/pm. I recall the highest AB build that can be done ISNT a 30 bab build. It is a Bard/rdd/wm build, iirc. The other is AA, bard. BOTH, cuz of the bard can NEVER be 30 bab. So, though its nice to say MAX AB, you are lying. *whoo* finally figured it out! Yes, this is my therapy!
WHen it comes to Clerics... i have realized that MOST people dont get them. I spent time teaching a dude in game to play my Beest build (ultimate PRC cleric listed). I took him by the hand and showed him ALL the strats to take out crazy bosses, ones that were designed for 4-5 lv 30 players for example (read yyrkoon's comments on the ultimate build in prc section. He was a DM on the pw i played and designed the prcs on). I wonder how this dragon would do in a situation like that? It is probably something that the designer never ever thought about (remember, the OC allows you to take out a DRAGON with 1 player! on the Mountain (pw) there were 20 of us fighting 1 dragon for an hour! Get the idea?).
as narrow minded as it is, if you want to be good, you really need to hang with good builders. You need the interaction in game, to see how they play and strategize to really understand. It is easy to be a BIG fish in a solo pond. It is another thing to be a BIG fish in a pond of giant fish (and i have spent ALOT of time in those environments). But, like i said, i am outdated.
Thanks Dr Thax. You are an excellent listener _________________
Quote: -- Posted by Kail Pendragon
Being hyperbolic is an integral part of Avado's being
Edited By avado on 01/01/09 02:26
Quote: by patient #2831 Thanks Dr Thax. You are an excellent listener
Sure... you know, there are professionals at these things, I'm an engineer, not a psychologist, so I can't give you adecuate help. Maybe you should try real therapy (no I'm not saying you're crazy, it's just... preventive).
_________________
Come on, I'm not buying that crap, avado crying, yeah right, I bet it's only a strategy to weaken my replies, like if I were a boss battle. You won't get me to lower the tone of my jokes and apologize for being mean with a sad face icon, you should've know I don't fall for sentimentalism, better luck next time. _________________
Quote: Posted 05/09/08 07:26 (GMT) -- avado
THax, you know i love and respect you, right?
Like so many threads of the past, this has degenerated to an avado/thax jibber-jabber.
I wasnt cryin bout the harsh tone (though NOW i may ). I was playin into BEING in THERAPY! LOL
I understand what you say, avado, but the thing is that playing online consumes too much time. I already have one time-consuming activity in my life (work) and therefore I cannot add another one, not at the expense of my personal life anyway. I am a businessman, and therefore don't have days off, nor do I have vacation time. I am on the clock 24/7 if needed, and the very few occasions in which I actually get some time off, like today, I like to gather my friends and have dinner, or go somewhere (leaving for the beach in a few). I don't have an hour to waste on killing a Dragon. I have maybe 10 or 20 minute breaks in which I can unpause this game and continue it while at work, but that's pretty much it.
I have a tendency to be somewhat addictive when it comes to games, and online games in that sense are THE MOST addictive ones I know, so I'd rather stay clear of those just in case. If that means that I'll never grow as a builder (because I don't play on PWs), then so be it. The alternative is way worse.
On a side note, you do realize that the D&D rules for alignment shift are worthless, right? I mean, evil people don't go out announcing on a newspaper classified ads section that they are evil. This system is way too "mathematical" sometimes. I do appreciate mathematics more than most, but people and behaviors cannot be equationed, or divided in groups. You cannot quantify behavior, and in that sense I think very little can be done. That is why alignment shifts in D&D have absolutely ZERO importance to me. Why can't there be a good "demonologist"? Someone that summons these creatures and binds them to achieve good goals? Even that is a simplist example, and to me, roleplaying is way more complex than that.
Anyway, happy new year to all. The main goal for me has been achieved: I am satisfied with my character. Feel free to disagree and suggest whatever changes you like. I have already tested and liked the result, and that is enough for me. Cheers, and good fortune to us all.
Take it EZ!
Quote: Posted 01/01/09 18:10 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
On a side note, you do realize that the D&D rules for alignment shift are worthless, right? I mean, evil people don't go out announcing on a newspaper classified ads section that they are evil. This system is way too "mathematical" sometimes. I do appreciate mathematics more than most, but people and behaviors cannot be equationed, or divided in groups. You cannot quantify behavior, and in that sense I think very little can be done. That is why alignment shifts in D&D have absolutely ZERO importance to me. Why can't there be a good "demonologist"? Someone that summons these creatures and binds them to achieve good goals? Even that is a simplist example, and to me, roleplaying is way more complex than that.
I agree with you ! The problem is, how does bioware balance a game like this without it? I know a pal/bard/pm isnt the best build, but it has CRAZY possibilities. It is a shame that alignment shifts dont take away pal abilities and such. Then it would be more fair. Most pw's dont allow changes, at least, not openly, so many wont be able to use this idea.
I totally understand the no game time. I have logged about 10 hours in the last 1.5 years playing (that is why i havent designed any builds). I simply dont do it. I stay on this forum to keep the old timers in line jk. In truth, i do enjoy the creativeness of designing builds, i just dont do it anymore. My daughter and wife take that time.
Happy new year.
Quote: Posted 01/01/09 21:59 (GMT) -- avado
Quote: Posted 01/01/09 18:10 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
On a side note, you do realize that the D&D rules for alignment shift are worthless, right? I mean, evil people don't go out announcing on a newspaper classified ads section that they are evil. This system is way too "mathematical" sometimes. I do appreciate mathematics more than most, but people and behaviors cannot be equationed, or divided in groups. You cannot quantify behavior, and in that sense I think very little can be done. That is why alignment shifts in D&D have absolutely ZERO importance to me. Why can't there be a good "demonologist"? Someone that summons these creatures and binds them to achieve good goals? Even that is a simplist example, and to me, roleplaying is way more complex than that.
I agree with you ! The problem is, how does bioware balance a game like this without it? I know a pal/bard/pm isnt the best build, but it has CRAZY possibilities. It is a shame that alignment shifts dont take away pal abilities and such. Then it would be more fair. Most pw's dont allow changes, at least, not openly, so many wont be able to use this idea.
I totally understand the no game time. I have logged about 10 hours in the last 1.5 years playing (that is why i havent designed any builds). I simply dont do it. I stay on this forum to keep the old timers in line jk. In truth, i do enjoy the creativeness of designing builds, i just dont do it anymore. My daughter and wife take that time.
Happy new year.
I understand and agree with everything you said, except one little detail: How does Bioware balance a game without it? Dude, this game is TOTALLY IMBALANCED. A level 38 Sorcerer in Extended GS mode is walking around. He's not dispellable except through Spell Breach and Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Time Stop, Maximized IGMS, Empowered IGMS, another Time Stop, another 2 IGMSs, Bigby's Crushing hand and EVERY ONE CHARACTER DIES (if there are many, perhaps they stand a chance). No Spell Resistance will matter. That's not balanced. What can a fighter do about it? Tell me one build that can overcome an Exhalted Sorcerer with a High Charisma score. It's a tremendously entertaining game, but balance isn't really one of it's strengths.
Take it EZ!
LOL! OMG! WE actually agree!
We all know that pvp there are the dragons and the sorcs. THat is really it. Bioware never really made NWN for pvp. THere are those that confuse the issue and try to say it is, but it isnt. Dragons and sorcs, thats it.
When i talk about balance, i refer to why nwn was made, pvm. I know people will talk about pvp areas, but they have never read the fine print. THose areas simply share how a spell cast AoE will interact with YOUR party or not. Let's keep it real!
btw, cdaeulepp, was one of the guys i played with a few times on the mountain. That's what i mean when i say you really have to get out to the pws to meet other builders. I have been EXTREMELY lucky.
The game may not be well balanced, but it's far from true that a Sorcerer defeats everything, they've got low HP and unless you're on a high magical server you'll be able to hit them. If you go a place where you can get +20 on all AC types then yes, you won't kill a mage, ever. I've managed to kill sorcerers in PvP, not all the time and I really hate it when they cast Greater Sanctuary to escape, but you can get them if they're not fully buffed when you start the combat. A high AB build like a dev-critting Weapon Master has neat chances of beating a mage. The Exhalted sorcerer Sorcerer / Paladin / Monk is not immune to dev crit, only the Sorcerer / Paladin / Pale Master is immune, which is an annoying build, or the Sorcerer / Paladin / Blackguard, who gets saves high enough to beat basically any DC, but both of them require the oh-so-difficult alignment shifts.
Anyone that can consistently land a knockdown per round can kill a mage IMO, I usually spam IKD or KD with my higher attacks every round and it works a fair amount of time, no matter what they do, their ACs will end higher than their Discipline scores, so hitting is all it takes and if by chance you manage to KD a mage that hasn't cast Epic Warding, you already won. I don't play sneakers but I'd assume a high level Rogue or Assassin with HiPS has got neat chances of beting a mage too.
I rarely play Sorcerers, but I've read that many PWs nerf Time Stop to balance arcane casters, and because it's annoying for other players to have mages stopping time. Anyway, there are ways to defeat any build, you can't defend agiainst everything and less expect to deal outraging damage after having a superb defense. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 01/02/09 01:53
Thax, If you have beaten a sorcerer, then it's because the guy was a noob. IF he's fully unbuffed (and how many mages walk around unbuffed? I never do), then IF you catch him by surprise you can STAND A CHANCE, but it's still a longshot. And really, A sorcerer with Divine Shield, Empowered Epic Mage Armor (provided it's the 5/5/5/5 version), Full Plate, Tower Shield, MAX Tumble, etc.. will have a very high AC, and very high saving throws because of Divine Grace and pumped charisma.
Total AC with no magic gear = 75. That's very hard to hit. If you catch him without Divine Shield, he'll still have +5 dodge at least from Epic Mage Armor, which will leave his AC at 60. How can you buff your AB? You can only ge so many levels of WM.
Let's say it's like this:
BAB: 30 +1 WF +2 EWF +12 STR (being VERY generous ) +6 SWF (counting 22 levels of WM) +1 EP
That will leave your AB at 52, you'll still need a 20 to hit him. Basically, you'll need a 20-20 to critical hit him and it's very likely that his high saves will be enough to resist your Devastating Critical hit. You can win this fight as often as I can win the lottery
Take it EZ!
There are many ways to beat an Exalted Sorc.
Magic duel, ie another Sorc/Wiz. Skill and luck alone will determine this outcome.
Mods to servers, to True Seeing f.ex. making it WAD. Now Any HiPS build, esp those with Monk for speed, is a true and real danger. Actually any stealth build is highly dangerous.
SR monks can't be hurt by a caster if he knows his game, although fully buffed he can't hurt one much either. He can win by attrition though.
In any situation where a Sorc can't use his entire spell arsenal vs opponents one at a time. That amounts to just about every PvP I ever played. I played for a while at Antiworld. I killed mages with any kind of build there, it's a pure PvP server, group. I don't say there are any better PvP characters for most settings than a WIZ/SORC, but that does not equal unbeatable.
And further, no matter what ramifications we put in there, you can always come up against "yourself".....
Bottom line, there is no unbeatable characters in PvP in NwN. I've had my behinds handed to me enough times to make that true.
Quote: Posted 12/31/08 19:27 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
True, I don't really like Barb though, probably prejudice, since the only "useful" thing he gets is rage, and druids have Blood Frenzy. That's why I didn't even consider it. Do you have any links to good Barbarian builds? I'd like to see them if possible
Take it EZ!
Many, just do a quick look around. They get more useful stuff than just Rage. Terrifying Rage f.ex. and Uncanny dodge, helps a bunch even as a dragon. 10% speed. Rage can be used in Dragonshape, which is more than one can say for most other buffs. Excellent duration in DS. DR don't stack with the one innate for dragons though. I don't say it's better than Paladin, but it's way more than just rage. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Edited By Grimnir77 on 01/02/09 12:23
Quote: Posted 01/02/09 10:25 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
That will leave your AB at 52, you'll still need a 20 to hit him. Basically, you'll need a 20-20 to critical hit him and it's very likely that his high saves will be enough to resist your Devastating Critical hit. You can win this fight as often as I can win the lottery
Take it EZ!
Nah, if he's stupid enough to let you start swinging at him without Mestils, he's still toast on your first 20. Sitting on his behind he'll loose so much AC you'll almost autohit from there and keep him down. If it's a WM like in your example, he'll have about 52 AB (give or take) without any buff or magic weapon. In a +5 setting he will need 9-15, depending on STR items. You're way worse off if he's a Bard/Fighter/RDD. Or Dragonshape perhaps, since he's got +8 to KD, and can be mean and green.
So "this fight" which you refer to above (a warrior swinging at the exalted considering AC and saves), well do play the lottery.
You don't let them start swinging at you, at least not without reciprocal shields up. Don't think the discipline score of the Exalted will save you, only in theory.
PS! The exalted Sorc doesn't have Divine shield btw, I know you talked in general, but it's still a very popular combo.
Edited By Grimnir77 on 01/02/09 12:27
Well, you ought to play more into different kind of environments. I usually only do PvP on PvP servers, and the only thing you do there is killing other players, no XP to worry about. On such circumstances, you'll get to fight several mages who didn't have the time to fully buff, almost always it won't be one-on-one and given you have to fight continuosly your average mage is only powerful half the road after which his spells have been used and he's a dead meat. They also need spells to prepare against everything, so they're not ready with only IGMS. One time I took three mages together with a Druid Elemental build and managed to kill one of them before getting killed, I was so proud of my build. Time Stop was obviously disabled in that server.
An Arcane Archer with Death Arrow works sometimes, not every player that uses a sorcerer is buffed against instant death. And you should know an Arcane Archer can hit an AC of 75 with moderate ease. Magical gear generally won't add almost any AC after you've capped Dodge and casted Epic Mage Armor unless you're on a high magical environment, in which there's no real reason to even try hitting anything. A Fighter/Wizard/Arcane Archer can cast True Strike, which gets an AB over 85 if I remember correctly, that makes consistent hits of good damage, have a bit of luck of striking a critical hit and he's dead, bow's critical hits make triple damage, so recieving one of those is bad. I know a mage has protection from physical damage even without Epic Warding. So yeah, an AA won't make a sure kill, you'll lose most of the time, but you can't just give up you know. You see a mage, you ty to kill him, make a srategy and try it, make another one until it works.
Now, if you're on a regular PW and a mage just decides to take you on in the middle of the woods (meaning he is prepared for PvP and you don't) then you can surrender already. But on the other hand, you could attempt to sneak up on a sorcerer passing by. Many of the powerful buffs have low duration, so it's ridiculous to expect a Sorcerer will have Mestil's and Epic Warding on all the time, it's just not possible. Once the battle starts, he'll have to choose either casting more defensive buffs or killing first. You could also try an escape plan for when they use Epic Warding. Clerics and Druids with lots of Heal spells sometimes manage against IGMS spammers. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 01/02/09 19:34
As noted, any server that goes with modified True Sight, mages are susceptible to assassination at any time. You simply can't wander around with all your buffs up all the time. Sure, your long term buffs can stay up, but that's not going to make a mage invulnerable to a rogue or assassin w/ maxed stealth and 10d6 or more in sneak attack dmg at his disposal. And if this is a monk sneaker, then it's likely the sorcerer watches spells bounce off the monk even if you spot him.
Buffed Mages trump fighters, true. Dragons trump virtually anything, no two ways about that. But walking around as a dragon is generally frowned upon on PWs too. So in either case, circumstances and luck do matter. And D&D is not balanced for PvP, it never will be. But that doesn't mean that tactics, luck and circumstance can't change things regardless of the class. IMHO, more important than what class you choose when you PvP, it's knowing the strengths of your PC and playing to them when you get put in that position--or better, put yourself in that position on your terms instead of theirs.
. I'm still thinking if I shouldn't include Disarm and Improved Disarm instead of those 2 feats. The possibilities are endless.
that's why he bashes at people. He's a good builder when it comes down to it, but nobody ever said that being able to make a strong build makes you tolerant and sociable. Just keep building and ignore him 
! The problem is, how does bioware balance a game like this without it? I know a pal/bard/pm isnt the best build, but it has CRAZY possibilities. It is a shame that alignment shifts dont take away pal abilities and such. Then it would be more fair. Most pw's dont allow changes, at least, not openly, so many wont be able to use this idea.