It's a simple request but something I can't quite do.
I'm requesting for a cleric/monk build. With 40 AB. Level 9 cleric spells and no negative ability modifier.
Yeah, I'm that bad at playing NWN. >.>
Just some considerations:
If you want a level 9 Cleric spellcaster, it would only work well if you got at least 30 levels of Cleric for spell DC. That won't give you 40 AB unbuffed, but with your buffs you can get it up to over 50 (yeah clerics are too easy). It would depend mostly on what you want your build to do. Why did you ask for Cleric / Monk? What are you hoping to achieve?
* Negative Ability here would be a good idea, then you could pump up strength or reduce constitution to 10 and get 16 starting dexterity.
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 01/13/09 15:25
The best base attack you can get is 25, weapon focus/epic weapon focus/epic prowess adds 4 to give you 29. To hit 40 AB completely unbuffed would require 32 strength or 32 dexterity unbuffed.
I'd suggest not worrying about the 40 mark as clerics have Divine Power (+5 AB and an extra attack), Divine Favor (+5 attack and damage), Greater Magic Weapon (+5 attack and damage), Bless (+1 attack), Aid (+1 attack), Prayer (+1 attack, damage, and saves), and Battletide (+2 attack, damage, and saves). That's a total of +20 AB, which is the AB cap from magic.
So, if we look at the "ideal" unbuffed AB of 40, the character could then add 6 AB from buffing str, dex, or wisdom. They could then add another 5-6 (typically) from a magically enhanced weapon. Let's say +5 for now. That means the "ideal" AB winds up at 51 AB without activating any buffs.
Let's look at our cleric again. 25 base AB, 4 AB from the feats, that's 29. He can add 20 from spells, that's 49. So as long as the cleric has...14...buffed strength, he will match or exceed a 40 AB character that doesn't have special buffs.
Most clerics will have at least 26 buffed strength, which would wind up at 57+ AB fully buffed.
Quote: Posted 01/13/09 15:21 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane If you want a level 9 Cleric spellcaster, it would only work well if you got at least 30 levels of Cleric for spell DC.
?
Quote: Posted 01/13/09 15:21 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
Just some considerations:
If you want a level 9 Cleric spellcaster, it would only work well if you got at least 30 levels of Cleric for spell DC.
You just pulled that number out of your *** There's no obvious reason why you'd need 30 or more levels. Yeah, I wouldn't go below 25 +SR feats to beat toolset SR, but even that may not be a concern in some environments. But my main point: SPELL DCs ARE NOT AFFECTED BY CLASS LEVEL.
Quote: Posted 01/13/09 15:21 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
That won't give you 40 AB unbuffed, but with your buffs you can get it up to over 50 (yeah clerics are too easy). It would depend mostly on what you want your build to do. Why did you ask for Cleric / Monk? What are you hoping to achieve?
Well, he didn't say 40 AB unbuffed, so any cleric can meet his request
Quote: Posted 01/13/09 15:21 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
The best base attack you can get is 25, weapon focus/epic weapon focus/epic prowess adds 4 to give you 29. To hit 40 AB completely unbuffed would require 32 strength or 32 dexterity unbuffed.
You could go Cleric/Monk/<full bab class> to achieve 25+ BAB.
I'd suggest not worrying about the 40 mark as clerics have Divine Power (+5 AB and an extra attack), Divine Favor (+5 attack and damage), Greater Magic Weapon (+5 attack and damage), Bless (+1 attack), Aid (+1 attack), Prayer (+1 attack, damage, and saves), and Battletide (+2 attack, damage, and saves). That's a total of +20 AB, which is the AB cap from magic.
So, if we look at the "ideal" unbuffed AB of 40, the character could then add 6 AB from buffing str, dex, or wisdom. They could then add another 5-6 (typically) from a magically enhanced weapon. Let's say +5 for now. That means the "ideal" AB winds up at 51 AB without activating any buffs.
Let's look at our cleric again. 25 base AB, 4 AB from the feats, that's 29. He can add 20 from spells, that's 49. So as long as the cleric has...14...buffed strength, he will match or exceed a 40 AB character that doesn't have special buffs.
Most clerics will have at least 26 buffed strength, which would wind up at 57+ AB fully buffed.
Yet, higher unbuffed AB means higher buffed AB. _________________
Quote: meatpimp
Pish tosh. We should now turn our attention to those dastardly devices that actually TIE one's body to the vehicle. No thank you, I prefer to have inertia throw my body clear of an accident, kindly.
Quote: Posted 01/13/09 16:50 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ You could go Cleric/Monk/<full bab class> to achieve 25+ BAB.
Which also makes Divine Power not as good due to the "4th" attack being lower in exchange for 1, maybe 2 AB across the board. He also didn't mention a third class initially.
Quote: Yet, higher unbuffed AB means higher buffed AB.
Sheer genius I tell you!
My point, as I'm fairly sure you knew, was that aiming for 40 unbuffed AB wasn't "needed" for a cleric build similar to this, and even winding up at 26-28 str instead of the 32 he'd want is still very, very good.
Which also makes Divine Power not as good due to the "4th" attack being lower in exchange for 1, maybe 2 AB across the board. He also didn't mention a third class initially.
My point, as I'm fairly sure you knew, was that aiming for 40 unbuffed AB wasn't "needed" for a cleric build similar to this, and even winding up at 26-28 str instead of the 32 he'd want is still very, very good.
I won't say what's needed, or what's not, but I was thinking WIS based vs. STR/DEX based with my AB comment, actually. _________________
Quote: meatpimp
Pish tosh. We should now turn our attention to those dastardly devices that actually TIE one's body to the vehicle. No thank you, I prefer to have inertia throw my body clear of an accident, kindly.
Quote: Posted 01/13/09 18:22 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ I won't say what's needed, or what's not, but I was thinking WIS based vs. STR/DEX based with my AB comment, actually.
Well, I think he's getting the "I need 40 AB" from some comments mainly in the other forum where people talk about needing the magical 40 AB or something to "be a viable meleer" or something like that.
If he wants to be a cleric/monk, I was guessing he wanted to be a meleer using monk melee tactics instead of being a cleric with monk cheese. A ranged Zen cleric can obviously be powerful, but I was guessing that wasn't what he wanted.
Again, guesses
Quote: Quote: Posted 01/13/09 15:21 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
Just some considerations:
If you want a level 9 Cleric spellcaster, it would only work well if you got at least 30 levels of Cleric for spell DC.
You just pulled that number out of your *** There's no obvious reason why you'd need 30 or more levels. Yeah, I wouldn't go below 25 +SR feats to beat toolset SR, but even that may not be a concern in some environments. But my main point: SPELL DCs ARE NOT AFFECTED BY CLASS LEVEL.
OOPS! apparently I shuffled knowledge of SP and DCs together. DC is affected by modifier, SP is affected by class level, right?
In my defense, I didn't pull it out of my ***, I thought Monk 9 for Improved Evasion, SD 1 for HiPS, and whatever is left on Cleric.
Anyway, I was thinking of either that or adding a 3rd class with MAX BAB and getting 20 levels of that pre-epic. However, I personally would prefer mixing a PrC for a little more cheese and leaving high-cleric as it is.
I was also suggesting so many Cleric levels for less dispellability. Nearly everything he can achieve by going Monk higher can also be achieved through more Cleric levels, except MONK AC bonuses, but my guess is he's not going to need them. You could get trickery and War domains for some extra Cleric cheese (Improved Invisibility for the concealment bonus and AoV just because it's GOOD ). Monk 9 for Improved Evasion is about all he needs .
01: Monk(1): Luck of Heros, Dodge, M: (Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist) 02: Cleric(1): Domain Strength, Domain Trickery 03: Cleric(2): Weapon Focus: Kama 04: Cleric(3): WIS+1, (WIS=15) 05: Cleric(4) 06: Cleric(5): Extend Spell 07: Monk(2): M: (Deflect Arrows) 08: Cleric(6): WIS+1, (WIS=16) 09: Cleric(7): Toughness 10: Cleric(8) 11: Cleric(9) 12: Monk(3): DEX+1, Improved Critical: Kama, (DEX=15) 13: Cleric(10) 14: Cleric(11) 15: Cleric(12): Ambidexterity 16: Champion of Torm(1): WIS+1, (WIS=17) 17: Monk(4) 18: Champion of Torm(2): Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 19: Champion of Torm(3): CT: (Smite Evil) 20: Champion of Torm(4): WIS+1, Blind Fight, (WIS=18) 21: Cleric(13): Epic Weapon Focus: Kama 22: Monk(5) 23: Cleric(14) 24: Cleric(15): WIS+1, Great Strength I, (STR=17), (WIS=19) 25: Cleric(16) 26: Champion of Torm(5) 27: Monk(6): Great Strength II, M: (Knockdown, Improved Knockdown), (STR=18) 28: Champion of Torm(6): STR+1, Armor Skin, (STR=19) 29: Cleric(17) 30: Cleric(18): Great Strength III, (STR=20) 31: Champion of Torm(7) 32: Monk(7): STR+1, (STR=21) 33: Champion of Torm(8): Great Strength IV, Epic Prowess, (STR=22) 34: Cleric(19) 35: Cleric(20) 36: Cleric(21): STR+1, Great Strength V, (STR=24) 37: Monk(8) 38: Cleric(22) 39: Cleric(23): Great Strength VI, Great Wisdom I, (STR=25), (WIS=20) 40: Monk(9): STR+1, M: (Improved Evasion), (STR=26)
Notes: You can drop Luck of Heroes and rearrange a bit to pick up Empower Spell if you want it. Saves are pretty outstanding - nothing less than 29. Can cast all spells, dual-wield kamas (for lots of Darkfire and DF damage), gets the full attack schedule (6 APR single-wielding, 8 dual-wielding, 9 with FOB, 10 with Haste).
For Domains, I took Strength and Trickery. You could take Travel if you want to cast Haste. No spell foci, and low Wis, so spell DC won't be very high, but he's obviously a buff-and-melee build, not an offensive caster.
The main disadvantage is that he matures a bit late (as do most multi-classed spellcasters).
TM
Quote: Posted 01/13/09 13:32 (GMT) -- Aazuma
It's a simple request but something I can't quite do.
I'm requesting for a cleric/monk build. With 40 AB. Level 9 cleric spells and no negative ability modifier.
Yeah, I'm that bad at playing NWN. >.>
What you really want is a cleric/sd! I believe this is one of the best builds out there, and its by a guy i actually know!! LOL well, we had a few animated discussions in a few games and on forums and we actually have fun together! LOL
Click Here
Stardawg is a top notch builder.
I know you didnt ask for this, but while i am braggin for stardawg (he's way to modest), there is this little ditty he made that has both ED and Dev crit.
I'd go with the cleric/sd though. It isnt as much a freak as the second one, but hey! _________________
Quote: -- Posted by Kail Pendragon
Being hyperbolic is an integral part of Avado's being
Well, assuming you can't take a third class, then I'd take a high amount of Cleric levels, but for a build I'd make, I would suggest something very close to TM's build right there, I'd just take Fighter instead of CoT because I prefer Epic Weapon Specialization to saves, choose what you like best.
I usually take 20 Cleric levels with my melee buffers. 20 is still hard to dispel with Greater Dispelling, and I usually recieve mords anyway in PvP, so I could care less about being dispellable or not, I take it up to 20 because that's the level at which your buffs won't grow any stronger, Darkfire is the last buff to cap and it caps at 20 (unless I'm missing something). Sure thing Divine Power will last longer with more Cleric levels, I can't deny that, but I prefer to take 16 pre-epic BAB. As of version 1.69 (actually before that version, but I could never pinpoint when), with Haste and Flurry of Blows, Divine Power will add the bonus APR at -15 AB (-10 technically, as DP would give you +5 AB from having 15 BAB), so the extra APR is not so amazing as it was in earlier versions, given that, it's still slightly better to be buffed with Divine Power than having 16 pre-epic BAB but the low duration is not nice. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 01/14/09 01:30
We are all giving great advice here, but I wonder if the OP has returned to read this thread, except for the usual folks commenting on builds (myself, as of late, included), he hasn't said a thing (too much information, perhaps )! Aazuma, where r u?
He could go Cleric 26 / Monk 9 / SD 5 and get Epic Dodge (such as in avado's suggested build), with only 20 Wisdom, since his DCs are going to suck anyway. He could go more Monk / SD earlier (even considering starting with 16 DEX and 14 WIS), adding Cleric later so he can use the 2 Cleric bonus feats to grab Greater WIS I and II and not have "idle" Cleric spells in any levels of his build. Maybe Monk 8 / SD 4 / Cleric 8 pre-epic.
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 01/14/09 21:05
Quote: Posted 01/14/09 20:58 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
He could go Cleric 26 / Monk 9 / SD 5 and get Epic Dodge (such as in avado's suggested build), with only 20 Wisdom, since his DCs are going to suck anyway. He could go more Monk / SD earlier (even considering starting with 16 DEX and 14 WIS), adding Cleric later so he can use the 2 Cleric bonus feats to grab Greater WIS I and II and not have "idle" Cleric spells in any levels of his build. Maybe Monk 8 / SD 4 / Cleric 8 pre-epic.
Take it EZ!
maxi!! You never really need more than 19 wis (20 if you must be "proper"). I look at cleric spells (the ones I would use) as a distraction to the real killing machine.. the CLERIC! The only real spell that needs a dc check is implode, but, there's a funny thing about that spell. You either do it all the way (meanin esf:evo + crazy high wisdom) or you dont use it at all. And if you do use it when you arent maxed for it, shame on you.
Maybe i have to write a book on the cleric. It seems that alot of people simply dont get the class! To say DELAY cleric *faints* proves you have never played a cleric, or that if you have, dont understand the potential.
Let me ask you, the cleric has, probably the BEST boss killing spell in nwn. Bosses start to get hard around 17ish (if you are in a good game). WHY why would you want to delay that for monk (arguably the most useless class in existance! me thinks that HS even has more potential than monk! ... k i am exagerating to make the point). I wonder what you mean by "idle" cleric spells...
Oh, and to respond to your first observation, me thinks that you are right. ALOT of people askin for builds on this guild ask for something and NEVER let us know that they have taken somethin from our rants. *edit* _________________
This post is for general information purposes only, and does not constitute a legal opinion or render any legal advice. It may not be relied on for any purpose, and gives rise to
Quote: Posted 01/14/09 22:06 (GMT) -- avado Let me ask you, the cleric has, probably the BEST boss killing spell in nwn. Bosses start to get hard around 17ish (if you are in a good game). WHY why would you want to delay that for monk
Take a look at the build I posted above. You delay cleric for monk for the following reasons:
Monk at level 1 for extra skillpoints (16 vs 8 from class skillpoints)
Monk at 7, 12, and 17 for Tumble dumps, and to get to multilpe of 4 by 20 for BAB.
Take 4 levels of some other full-AB class (i.e. CoT or Fighter) to get 16 BAB for the extra attack (I used to aim for 15 to use the DP bonus, but with 1.69 you are the same with DP whether you have 15 or 16 BAB, and much better off with 16 BAB when DP wears off, so now I prefer to aim for 16). This will also improve the strong save(s) of that class by 3.
In epic levels, getting to Monk 6 for IKD on the sooner side is nice. Since you want to aim for 9 by level 40 for Imp. Evasion anyway, you have 5 to take in epic, so you can take them at 22, 27, 32, and 37 for tumble dumps, leaving one extra. Take it early to get IKD early. Note that I didn't do this above, but you could take a Monk level at 21 or 23, then drop the one at 37. Gets IKD 5 levels sooner in exchange for delaying cleric spells by 1 level.
For CoT vs. Fighter, CoT lets you take Great Wis as a bonus feat, which is nice. Fighter would let you take WS/EWS, but since you are a Cleric you can already get plenty of damage from DF, Prayer, Darkfire, Bless Weapon, etc., so EWS isn't as critical. Also, you are somewhat tight on feats, so squeezing them in isn't that easy without dropping something else. Also, CoT makes it easy to level without worrying about XP penalties, while fighter would mean you have to be careful to balance throughout. You could go for it if you want it, I just don't think it's critical for a str-based cleric build.
TM
Edited By Tattoed Monk on 01/14/09 22:31
Quote: Posted 01/14/09 20:58 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
...Cleric later so he can use the 2 Cleric bonus feats to grab Greater WIS I and II and not have "idle" Cleric spells in any levels of his build. Maybe Monk 8 / SD 4 / Cleric 8 pre-epic.
Take it EZ!
TM it isnt your build i had a question about. it is this one suggested. WHy on earth you would delay the number one boss killer to later is beyond my understanding.
If the only thing you really want are saves, go monk 20 pre all the time. Saves are really something you cant do much about. +1 here or there isnt going to make or break a build (and if it does, then you need serious help).
I guess maxi's suggestion is for those who never play the game, just born lv 40s. while it may be better for saves or some other unknown reason, it doesnt make the character easier to level or play, which is also, one of the hidden skills of an epic builder (study TM's build if you have a question as to what i am refering too).
for TM, i get that DP has changed. Getting 16 bab seems the new thing to do so cot is a good idea. _________________
Quote: -- Posted by Kail Pendragon
Being hyperbolic is an integral part of Avado's being
Quote: TM it isnt your build i had a question about.
Oops, sorry.
Quote: If the only thing you really want are saves, go monk 20 pre all the time.
Actually, you can do better than that - try Monk 18leric 1/CoT 1.
It will get you +1 to all saves over pure monk, but I wouldn't suggest actually doing that for a Cleric build... I agree that +/-1 on saves isn't a big deal.
TM
Quote: maxi!! You never really need more than 19 wis (20 if you must be "proper"). I look at cleric spells (the ones I would use) as a distraction to the real killing machine.. the CLERIC! The only real spell that needs a dc check is implode, but, there's a funny thing about that spell. You either do it all the way (meanin esf:evo + crazy high wisdom) or you dont use it at all. And if you do use it when you arent maxed for it, shame on you.
Maybe i have to write a book on the cleric. It seems that alot of people simply dont get the class! To say DELAY cleric *faints* proves you have never played a cleric, or that if you have, dont understand the potential.
Let me ask you, the cleric has, probably the BEST boss killing spell in nwn. Bosses start to get hard around 17ish (if you are in a good game). WHY why would you want to delay that for monk (arguably the most useless class in existance! me thinks that HS even has more potential than monk! ... k i am exagerating to make the point). I wonder what you mean by "idle" cleric spells...
Oh, and to respond to your first observation, me thinks that you are right. ALOT of people askin for builds on this guild ask for something and NEVER let us know that they have taken somethin from our rants. *edit*
1- I have played a Cleric, I know they are awesome, but delaying the acquisition of it will not make the build unplayable (just less cheap ). If you want you could go Monk 4 / SD 4 / Cleric 12 (not necessarily in that order) and then you'll have your beloved Harm. I just think it's more fun to play without it. It's not fair, I think, to use such cheap tactics (go in Invisible to catch the boss Flat-Footed, buffed with Bless, Aid, Extended Prayer, Extended Divine Power, Extended Divine Favor, Bull's Strength "god this is cheap" and make ur unmissable touch attack then kill the damned boss with one hit of your Darkfire, Greater Magic Weapon MAX BAB next attack while you get missed by all with your 50% concealment from Improved Invisibility and high AC with Shield of Faith, Magic Vestment and an eventual Haste Dodge AC bonus with activated Improved Expertise mode). "UFF it tires me to even mention all of that IMBANESS!" I may not know all the combos, but I know a few
2- By idle Cleric spells I mean spell levels unusable for low WIS score. That would be mostly for the later stages of the build. if you MAX Cleric too soon, you may not have enough WIS to cast your higher level spells, providing you do as you should and pump your DEX all the way. If you plan to use 2 Great Wisdom from Cleric bonus feats, that means your pre-epic WIS will have to be at either 18 (if you're going WIS 20) or 17 (if you're going WIS 19). That would make 9th or 8th and 9th spells uncastable until your epics, which means you must have something else to rely on until you get your Great WIS feats, hence the Monk and SD levelling ASAP. I hope it's well explained now . You could also settle for 22 WIS (like your friend there did in his build), but to me that's a waste of 1 AB.
Quote: Take 4 levels of some other full-AB class (i.e. CoT or Fighter) to get 16 BAB for the extra attack (I used to aim for 15 to use the DP bonus, but with 1.69 you are the same with DP whether you have 15 or 16 BAB, and much better off with 16 BAB when DP wears off, so now I prefer to aim for 16). This will also improve the strong save(s) of that class by 3.
I dislike the idea of getting a third class to achieve something you can already achieve through spells. IMO it's much better to get HIPS and Epic Dodge, while staying unarmored as any dexer to also keep your Monk AC bonus. You can keep your WIS at 19, but I like even scores better (you get 1 AC bonus and a few bonus spells for only 1 stat point by going WIS 20). To me CoT is redundant except for the saves bonus.
A taken out of my *** 30 level Cleric can have 60 rounds of Divine Power uberness, which should be enough to end any battle combined with Cleric cheapness.
Anyway, Aazuma, we're still looking for some feedback (back me up here, avado )!!! Tell us what you've learned!
Take it EZ!!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 01/15/09 22:30
Quote: by Maximilian Kane I dislike the idea of getting a third class to achieve something you can already achieve through spells.
Try it in real combat and you'll see it for yourself. Divine Power has a very low duration and the new version fixed the awesome extra APR cheap trick. Try playing in an older version, I once made the "lowest APR build" with 9 BAB and 3 Monk APR to exploit Divine Power to full, so your AB would go for example +40/+37/+34/+40/+40/+40/+40/+40 with Haste, Divine Power and Flurry of Blows. I never posted it because you cap your AB at a considerably lower value, but using the new version, you'd get +40/+37/+34/+40/+35/+30/+25/+20, because the extra APR are counted like an off-hand and don't recieve Monk progression, if I remember correctly. A regular build obviously won't take Divine Power at such disadvantage, but you can see why it's no longer so cool. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 01/16/09 01:07
Maxi, you have no clue about clerics do you? Harm is NOT the spell i was talking about. I was talking about boss killer. Harm is a tool that you use when you have 1000+ monsters to take out rather quickly. Harm is resisted by MOST if not ALL bosses on ALL the servers i have played. If vanilla nwn allows you to use harm on a boss, then you NEED to get out and play, cuz the strategies you mention are ***. Pure and simple.
You talk like a rookie. You seriously think that little of me to say that i would use such tactics? That i would defend clerics like i do for that sort of garbage? Dude...
On the Mountain, there is a boss around lv 30 quest, that is so hard to take out that i have seen lv 33 WEAPON MASTER builds need a party of 4 and STILL die to this guy! Yet, i go and solo him CONSISTANTLY. I have even been requested to help out and the guy i was helping, would run and hide as not to die while i took him out. You think Harm could do that? NOPE. I cant believe your ignorance as to the clerics REAL power. _________________
Maxi, you have no clue about clerics do you? Harm is NOT the spell i was talking about. I was talking about boss killer. Harm is a tool that you use when you have 1000+ monsters to take out rather quickly. Harm is resisted by MOST if not ALL bosses on ALL the servers i have played. If vanilla nwn allows you to use harm on a boss, then you NEED to get out and play, cuz the strategies you mention are ***. Pure and simple.
You talk like a rookie. You seriously think that little of me to say that i would use such tactics? That i would defend clerics like i do for that sort of garbage? Dude...
On the Mountain, there is a boss around lv 30 quest, that is so hard to take out that i have seen lv 33 WEAPON MASTER builds need a party of 4 and STILL die to this guy! Yet, i go and solo him CONSISTANTLY. I have even been requested to help out and the guy i was helping, would run and hide as not to die while i took him out. You think Harm could do that? NOPE. I cant believe your ignorance as to the clerics REAL power.
So maybe you should help the guy? _________________
Quote: meatpimp
Pish tosh. We should now turn our attention to those dastardly devices that actually TIE one's body to the vehicle. No thank you, I prefer to have inertia throw my body clear of an accident, kindly.
OH SHI-
My request was somewhat bleak. I did mean 40 AB unbuffed, level 9 Cleric spells, no negative modifier(I dunno why, but I just can't live with negatives...) and, err, unarmed focused.
Of course, the if not possible, I'll take the next best thing.
I know about the unarmed focused part being inferior to wielding a weapon (GMW, Darkfire, blah blah blah), but how many can say that they fell a dragon with their bare hands?
@ avado
I'm ignorant in terms of bosses in PWs more than anything else, since as you know I have not and will not play in one. I think that the problem is you keep bragging that you know so much and you're so good that you can solo a boss that all others fail to even kill and BLA BLA BLA. You talk way too much. Grow up. And just so you know I wasn't talking about level 30 strategies. I haven't played a Cleric-based build yet, so in terms of level 40 highly Cleric-based builds I have so far had no interest in trying one. I'm having fun with the ones I've created so far, and that's what is important to me. Anyway I'm done talking to you. If you need to diminish someone over knowledge in the rules of a game to feel good about yourself, then search for another target. I will hear from you no more. I'd rather talk to the other helpful and well mannered members of this guild, such as Finn, Thax, Magical Master, onion eater, Grimnir, and the list goes on...
Aazuma, how nice of you to show up!
Take it EZ guys!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 01/16/09 10:46
Well Max, in his defense, you seem to "talk" nearly as much, despite the fact that you haven't actually "experienced" what you're trying to talk about. In that instance, I'm going to listen to the person "bragging" from experience over the person without any functional knowledge on the situation, since you came right out and admitted that you didn't know what you were talking about, which is basically what he'd been "accusing" you of anyway.
Sure, avado does come across as quite arrogant (and a little harsh) on the topic of clerics, but you weren't exactly helping matters by trying to argue that he was "wrong" only to go on and admit you'd "never played a cleric build".
I'm not really a cleric fan (not that I dispute their power), but you won't see me leaping into discussions and spouting off untested theories as great wisdom. I do know that I'd rather have a cleric 20 than a cleric 12, monk 4, SD 4. Is that latter "unplayable?" No, most build are "playable" under the proper conditions, but that doesn't mean it's comparable to something else, which was avado's point all along.
It's great that you're having fun with the builds that you do have, but truthfully, you come across in this thread as being at least as "obnoxious" as avado, so I cringed a little when you suddenly wanted to "take the high road."
Quote: By idle Cleric spells I mean spell levels unusable for low WIS score.
The answer to that is to pump your Wis to keep up with the Cleric levels (as I did in the build I posted - note that Wis starts at 14, but always stays high enough to cast all the Cleric spells his Cleric level qualifies for).
Quote: My request was somewhat bleak. I did mean 40 AB unbuffed, level 9 Cleric spells, no negative modifier(I dunno why, but I just can't live with negatives...) and, err, unarmed focused.
That makes it much tougher. Going unarmed means you want at least 16 monk levels, which doesn't leave much for multiclassing, and makes it very hard to get any epic bonus feats (probably no more than 1). You could go for something like Monk 16/Cleric 20/CoT 4. I doubt you can get to 40AB unbuffed - let's assume 26 BAB if you take the 4 CoT level pre-epic, 4 from WF/EWF/EP, means you need at least a 30 in Str or Dex. That's tough to get while pumping Wis 19, unless you really minimize the other abilities. I suppose if you went with an Elf, left Str at 8, Con at 10, you might be able to do it, but you'd also have XP penalties and major problems with damage output (low str and unarmed so the Cleric weapon buffs don't help).
As for SD builds for Epic Dodge, they are very nice (regardless of what the other 2 classes are), but tend to have problems with damage output. Cleric buffs can help somewhat, but again most of the best of those don't work on unarmed builds.
If you really want to do a good caster cleric/monk build, install the PRC and build a Cleric/Monk/Sacred Fist. Go for Cleric 5/Monk 9/Sacred Fist 26 and you will have a caster level of 31, 4 bonus epic feats, and Sacred Flame damage of 26 + Wis mod per hit on your unarmed attack (and you can even go Wis-basd by taking Intuitive Strike).
Well Max, in his defense, you seem to "talk" nearly as much, despite the fact that you haven't actually "experienced" what you're trying to talk about. In that instance, I'm going to listen to the person "bragging" from experience over the person without any functional knowledge on the situation, since you came right out and admitted that you didn't know what you were talking about, which is basically what he'd been "accusing" you of anyway.
Sure, avado does come across as quite arrogant (and a little harsh) on the topic of clerics, but you weren't exactly helping matters by trying to argue that he was "wrong" only to go on and admit you'd "never played a cleric build".
I'm not really a cleric fan (not that I dispute their power), but you won't see me leaping into discussions and spouting off untested theories as great wisdom. I do know that I'd rather have a cleric 20 than a cleric 12, monk 4, SD 4. Is that latter "unplayable?" No, most build are "playable" under the proper conditions, but that doesn't mean it's comparable to something else, which was avado's point all along.
It's great that you're having fun with the builds that you do have, but truthfully, you come across in this thread as being at least as "obnoxious" as avado, so I cringed a little when you suddenly wanted to "take the high road."
1- It amazes me to see how your "loyalty" towards older members surpasses even your common sense. 1st of all I NEVER said that avado was wrong, it has actually been the other way around since this thread began (him telling me how wrong I was). The ONLY thing I disagree with is the fact that the build his friend came up with and he posted the link to sacrificed 1 AB at level 40 in exchange for playability, and even in that case I know it's a matter of personal preference. I disagreed just as much or even more with Tattoed Monk and he remained civilized and polite towards me all along. In other threads, I have disagreed with several other of the "ancients" such as Grimnir and Finneous, and they were also polite (just as I was) all along. Starting to get my point here? It is a CONSCIOUS CHOICE to be obnoxious, and I don't believe I was EVER doing so. Never have you seen call someone else an ignorant, or anything of the sorts, but I have AND WILL CONTINUE TO express my opinions without any disrespect towards any other member of the guild, including yourself.
BTW: As soon as I realize I'm wrong, I concede a point. If you think that's arrogant, then there's not much else I can say to you, except that you are wrong. And FYI I have tested some of these ideas and strategies that I've discussed in many threads, just not in the same places, worlds that you guys play in.
2- If by "functional knowledge" you mean having experience playing in a PW, then yeah, I don't have any and don't intend to acquire any. In the modules I play, so far my strategies haven't failed me once. That does not mean I cannot learn more, in fact I know that there's a lot more for me to learn from the people of this guild, I just choose to do so from some more pleasant members that know just as much if not more than avado.
3- Following your chain of thought, every build is playable, so if you set the favorable conditions, you could play 6 cleric levels without the ability to cast 9th level spells until you can achieve level 23 Cleric, grabbing Great Wisdom I and achieving WIS 19, witha net gain of 1 ab at level 40. I understand if anyone disagrees with this, but I think it's worth the suffering at these levels, that's my personal opinion, which is, when given a valid reason, subject to change.
I don't think you really understand me though, just a hunch.
Take it EZ!
Which brings us to one more question for the OP: Do you want this build to be playable from level 1, or are you aiming for max power at level 40? This is especially important for an unarmed Monk build, since getting to Monk 16 early is important for damage output (i.e. you don't want to be in high Epic levels still only doing 1d8 unarmed damage).
If you are aiming for a level 40 build, you don't have to worry about when you get Monk 16 or Cleric 17 (for 9th level spells). If you are playing from level 1, both of those are things you want early if possible, and of course it's not possible to get both before level 33...
Which is why my suggestion was to use kama(s) and only take a few monk levels for periodic Tumble dumps.
TM
Quote: Posted 01/16/09 17:27 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane 2- If by "functional knowledge" you mean having experience playing in a PW, then yeah, I don't have any and don't intend to acquire any. In the modules I play, so far my strategies haven't failed me once.
Just a side note: remember our discussion about EMS? Your Harm tactic is working in Aielund because it wasn't designed for the standard Harm spell. We're not even discussing experience playing in a PW, but just playing good modules in general.
The original 3 campaigns were made incredibly easy. Remember Vix'thra in HotU? Remember being able to cast Heal or Mass Heal on the boss and reduce him to 1d4 hp? You won't be able to do that in a properly balanced campaign (either that effect will be changed by a hak or the boss will be immune to the spell). Ditto for Harm.
So far, and correct me if I'm wrong, you've played the original 3 campaigns and you're working on Aielund now. Until you stepped into Aielund, you hadn't anything that was even somewhat balanced.
I remember a few years back being in love with a 2H weapon master build. He had low HP, but I was a wrecking ball in HotU with my +10 weapon with haste, true seeing, keen, 2d6 acid damage, and regen. I didn't even need to wear a shield or use a natural armor necklace (or the crystal of undeath's shadow shield), 40ish AC was all I needed.
Then I stepped foot into some PWs, Sands of Fate, Saleron's Gambit, and Aielund and got a very rude awakening (side note, I'm only part of the way through Saleron's Gambit, but it's a very interesting low level, low magic campaign, at least so far). I realized that ignoring both shield and natural AC was going to get me killed a lot. I realized I wouldn't get a +10 dream weapon with very low AC/AB enemies (Sands of Fate let me use that weapon, though. Decent campaign overall, but *very* frustrating through a bunch of stupid things at times, I'm not sure if I'd really recommend it).
I think a moment like that will hopefully come soon for you. You've been reading the Bioware boards and looking at stuff from this guild, so I don't think it will be as much of a shock, but from what you've said I hope/think fairly soon you'll do something and think "Wow, damn, I need to rethink my entire playstyle and assumptions."
Quote: I do know that I'd rather have a cleric 20 than a cleric 12, monk 4, SD 4.
I think this depends a lot on environment and what you expect to be facing. For facing a single boss who has True Sight, I agree the pure Cleric would be better. But for mobs, or against anything without True Sight, I think the multiclass would be better. The Cleric/Monk/SD build has 5 attacks per round or 6 with FoB vs. 3 for the pure cleric, HiPS (which means anything without True Sight is practically helpless against you), better saves, Evasion, Wisdom AC boost, Tumble AC boost and speed boost. True, the buffs haven't reached full strength yet, but an extra 3 attacks per round will go a LONG way to make up for that.
Of course, a few more levels and once Cleric reaches 20, the multiclass is clearly better.
TM
For what it's worth, IMO, an unarmed cleric is a bad, bad idea. Also, 40 unbuffed AB is soooo not worth achieving. Just saying, do what you like, but the goals you set out are, in my ever so humble opinion, misguided.
Hmmm, for unarmed I'd actually take Monk up to 18 instead of 16. Empty Body is pretty nice once you're so close to it, though the last two levels would need to be left into epics in order to improve your BAB.
You're still in heavy difficulties with the unbuffed AB, with such a static spread you can do close to nothing to improve AB. Let's take it from 40, -4 from WF, EWF and EP, -26 BAB (from a Cleric18/Monk18/Fighter4 spread) leaves you at 10 which need to come from STR. I will need to convince you how imporant it is to drop status into negative modifiers, but I don't know how to do it, you don't even have an argument to fight against.
So, you need negative modifiers, why? in order to get the needed 30 unbuffed STR you'd better start as Half-orc and drop CHA, DEX and INT, or else this might not be possible. If you can start with 18 STR and 16 WIS I think you'll be able to reach the STR score, that would take 3 ability increases to WIS and 12 into STR, it can be done with Great Strength V, so it's possible, but just barely.
EDIT: Of course, I agree an unarmed Monk is a bad idea, but I'm tired of that. Here's how to make an 40 unarmed AB build, done, mission acomplished, be happy. Take it as a base and tweak it to your liking, but asking anything beyond this is unnecesary, you don't need more help to make the 40 AB Cleric/Monk. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 01/16/09 20:56
Quote: Posted 01/16/09 07:12 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ
Quote: Posted 01/16/09 05:15 (GMT) -- avado
Maxi, you have no clue about clerics do you? Harm is NOT the spell i was talking about. I was talking about boss killer. Harm is a tool that you use when you have 1000+ monsters to take out rather quickly. Harm is resisted by MOST if not ALL bosses on ALL the servers i have played. If vanilla nwn allows you to use harm on a boss, then you NEED to get out and play, cuz the strategies you mention are ***. Pure and simple.
You talk like a rookie. You seriously think that little of me to say that i would use such tactics? That i would defend clerics like i do for that sort of garbage? Dude...
On the Mountain, there is a boss around lv 30 quest, that is so hard to take out that i have seen lv 33 WEAPON MASTER builds need a party of 4 and STILL die to this guy! Yet, i go and solo him CONSISTANTLY. I have even been requested to help out and the guy i was helping, would run and hide as not to die while i took him out. You think Harm could do that? NOPE. I cant believe your ignorance as to the clerics REAL power.
So maybe you should help the guy?
Finn, just cuz i respect you so, i did what you suggested. it took me a few hours to get the thoughts right, but here it is... Click Here
With regards to delaying the boss killer, it all depends on your understanding of the server. I played the mountain to lv 27 with lv 5 cleric spells cuz i knew the server. IF i was starting a new server, i would get lv 7 for sure, even lv 9 spells to give me the options i suggest in that link. hope this clears up everything, and we wont hear any more of this assinine Harm cleric BS. _________________
I think avado answered your question like no other could...
Avado, you could post this under cleric information sticky, I believe there's one somewhere in this forum. I am too lazy to look at the moment, but if I recall correctly, there's one. I am not sure if it's complete or not, if there is any more information you can add to it, please feel free to do so.
We never actually finished gathering information on all classes, including prestige classes as well.
Perhaps it's high time for the information to be complied for those classes.
Anuis _________________ - Epic Character Builders Guild
- Life is but a dream...
- I know more than I am letting on...
-I think, Therefore I am.
Edited By Anuis on 01/16/09 23:32
Quote: Posted 01/16/09 23:03 (GMT) -- avado
Finn, just cuz i respect you so, i did what you suggested. it took me a few hours to get the thoughts right, but here it is... Click Here
With regards to delaying the boss killer, it all depends on your understanding of the server. I played the mountain to lv 27 with lv 5 cleric spells cuz i knew the server. IF i was starting a new server, i would get lv 7 for sure, even lv 9 spells to give me the options i suggest in that link. hope this clears up everything, and we wont hear any more of this assinine Harm cleric BS.
Awesome. This was all part of my plot to have you reveal your dark secrets _________________ Ghaash agh akūl - Nazgūl skoiz Mirdautas vras! Karn ghaamp agh nūt Shaut Manwe quiinubat gukh
Summoning - Mirdautas Vras
Quote: Posted 01/17/09 02:32 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ
Awesome. This was all part of my plot to have you reveal your dark secrets
Dark secrets?? lol the only reason i never talked of this before is that i thought that it was common knowledge.
and, since it is only really pvm strategy, i figured no one would be interested. I only hope that people now understand what i was meanin in my rants! Until i saw maxi's idea of what a cleric does, i didnt realize how far i had come in 5 or 6 years (it is hard for me to judge cuz i got nwn BEFORE my first pc, and at that time i didnt know much, so my first pc couldnt run nwn! I waited a full year and a half before i played it, so around 2003 or so).
Anuis, if you feel that the info could go in the cleric file, it would be lost! LOL it is up to the mods to put it where they feel the best (if you want to sticky it or not). Like i said, Stryder Blade is the guy i learned the subtlties from. He's the real master. I'm just the outspoken, abnoxious student!
Anuis, maybe you should ask the experts to give a lowdown on how they play their favorite classes. Like Thax' discourse ont he druid, or FInn on anything! LOL Who knows, with info like that, you could actually start chargin a membership fee to join the guild! hmm.. i wish i had thought of that in 2004! oh well _________________
I agree with avado, Storm of Vengeance rocks, it stuns great, it can deal heavy damage over time, and Evasion doesn't work against it, you should try it in your strategy as well, too bad it's conjura
Regarding your blade barrier bit...the bosses don't have 50/+1 reduction to avoid it?
Quote: Posted 01/17/09 03:17 (GMT) -- avado
Anuis, if you feel that the info could go in the cleric file, it would be lost! LOL it is up to the mods to put it where they feel the best (if you want to sticky it or not). Like i said, Stryder Blade is the guy i learned the subtlties from. He's the real master. I'm just the outspoken, abnoxious student!
Actually, the purpose of those posts was to create compilation of data/information on all classes that would create a comprehensive understanding of how it works and such on NWN engine(after all, some of actual classes features differs from how it is implemented in the game). In addition to how other class(es) works with it.
For example:
Harpers Scouts
Shadowdancer
Arcane Archer
At that point, if we have collected much as we possibly can, then it can be turned into pdf file or something that can be posted on vault. Which was the plan years ago... Was going to call it.. "Comprehensive Insights Into The Classes by Epic Character Builders" Or something of that sort.
So, by having thoughts and insights from multiple builders, we surely will have good stuff there!
Quote: Anuis, maybe you should ask the experts to give a lowdown on how they play their favorite classes. Like Thax' discourse ont he druid, or FInn on anything! LOL Who knows, with info like that, you could actually start chargin a membership fee to join the guild! hmm.. i wish i had thought of that in 2004! oh well
I did at one point in the forum, Mithdrates, Cinnabar, Emrill, to name a few posted their thoughts/insights on some of the classes. We still can use some more stuff.
Anuis _________________ - Epic Character Builders Guild
- Life is but a dream...
- I know more than I am letting on...
-I think, Therefore I am.
Well, I've seen the Druid sticky posted by Emrill and truth be told, it has too much informative stuff that should be read in the manual rather than insight on how to use a Druid (I disagree with his stats distribution by the way), so I think it's a very useless thread, no offense intended. The thing is, if I posted what I know about how to play a Druid should I post it as a reply there or do a separate thread? It would have an entirely different approach, so I'd rather make it separate, but I never stopped a moment to talk about that and forgot about it.
I also noticed there is no sticky for Dwarven Defender. I can do that one if no one minds, since I've played lots of DwD combinations, I'd just need a mod to make it sticky. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 01/19/09 00:03
Some of things in manual are wrong though. I have not read over some of those threads though, maybe glanced but not read it all, but some probably reflects how it's set up in NWN accurately than the manual does.
You are welcome to start another thread, title it accurately as you can, such as "Insights into Druid" so those who read them will know the difference.
As for dwarven defender, please feel free to make one for it. I am sure mods or I will sticky it when we see it.
Well, I've seen the Druid sticky posted by Emrill and truth be told, it has too much informative stuff that should be read in the manual rather than insight on how to use a Druid (I disagree with his stats distribution by the way), so I think it's a very useless thread, no offense intended. The thing is, if I posted what I know about how to play a Druid should I post it as a reply there or do a separate thread? It would have an entirely different approach, so I'd rather make it separate, but I never stopped a moment to talk about that and forgot about it.
I also noticed there is no sticky for Dwarven Defender. I can do that one if no one minds, since I've played lots of DwD combinations, I'd just need a mod to make it sticky.
There's no obvious reason why you'd need 30 or more levels. Yeah, I wouldn't go below 25 +SR feats to beat toolset SR, but even that may not be a concern in some environments. But my main point: SPELL DCs ARE NOT AFFECTED BY CLASS LEVEL.
. 
)! Aazuma, where r u? 
@ avado