Was trying to fit toughness in but cant figure out how without getting rid of some Great Strength if I want Overwhelming Crit and IKD... Any suggestions would be open, rework levels etc. I'd hate to just take and Epic Toughness with that last feat.
Can I bump myself? I really had this how I wanted it before a crash and tried to remake it from memory, but my sheet making skills have faded with lack of use, I cant really remember the leveling/feat correllation and how to use it to my advantage. It's pretty much a twist on the Blade of the Reaper build, just to fit how I wanted it to look. Any love here on getting it polished would be great. Wanted the Overwhelming crit, as much str. as I could get, IKD, and rogue levels for UMD, Tumble, and skill points, just that last feat was killing me. If anyone can see how to twist it to make it a little better or how to fit a worth while feat in there would be really welcome.
IDK is nowhere near as valuable as blind fight. I assume your server disallows dev crit. Could you post more as to the environment you will be taking this guy into? Also you might want to take assassin or monk instead of rogue.
Stat spread could use some work. WIS 10 isn't nearly as valuable as CON 14.
BF is a must. Something's gotta give (or see below).
Best advice I can give you for that last WM feat is to scrap it. Take a few more fighter levels instead. Those late WM bonus feats stink.
Do you really want O crit? Unless it's been fixed, the O crit bonus is over-written by any crit bonus you might have on a weapon, which may or may not be an issue.
For what it's worth, I generally take fewer WM levels, and more fighter levels. Reason is I feel starved for pre-epic feats, while I have epic feats to burn on useless junk. Yeah, the AB boni are nice, but it aint that big a deal. 19/16/5 or so works for me, though it's always tempting to do more like 19/11/10 and get imp evasion.
I do really like this combo though. There are some inherent problems (bloody WM bonus feats...), but it still plays very nicely. Just watch out for that will save...
Im no master, but i dont think he took 25 wm for the feat!
Quote: Posted 10/31/09 02:01 (GMT) -- onion eater Do you really want O crit? Unless it's been fixed, the O crit bonus is over-written by any crit bonus you might have on a weapon, which may or may not be an issue.
As far as I have been aware massive critical always stacked with overwhelming critical. What doesn't work well is ki damage and overwhelming critical (where the overwhelming crit deals 1d6 regardless of multiplier).
Quote: Posted 10/31/09 02:03 (GMT) -- avado
Im no master, but i dont think he took 25 wm for the feat!
No, but the AB increase can't be worth it alone. That's what I'm sayin'. You get nothin' much besides the AB increase, and that's an awful lot of levels (in epic no less), for a bit of AB. IMO, there's a very limited window of usefulness for WMs. Fewer than 16 and it seems a waste of investment, and greater than 19 or 22 and you're getting a lousy return in the bonus feat department. I've played with a lot of WM variations, and almost all the ones I like are WM16 or WM19. There are ways to make use of more WM levels (like double specialization, or Dev Crit), but I rarely go down that road from fear of pre-epic feat starvation.
@ WhiZ, looking at the wiki, it appears to be fixed, but there was at one point a bug involving O crit an, IIRC, massive critical on weapons. Now it looks like the ki crit bug remains, but ki crit is pretty useless anyways...
Yea, no Dev. Crit where I'll be taking him. The heavy WM was indeed for the AB bonus, same with the Great STR's, basically trying to max out Base AB with the F/WM/R class combo. Blind Fight is a great idea, but how do I fit it in? Is it a leveling issue, or with the level spread can I not get the feat in?
Quote: Posted 10/31/09 17:55 (GMT) -- onion eater @ WhiZ, looking at the wiki, it appears to be fixed, but there was at one point a bug involving O crit an, IIRC, massive critical on weapons. Now it looks like the ki crit bug remains, but ki crit is pretty useless anyways...
From the history it looks around February 2007 that the change occured. So the non-stacking could have been there through 1.68.
Whether the WM extra AB is worth it depends entirely on the mod. Onion Eater, getting 1 AB and 20 hp as a bonus every 3 levels seems pretty good to me...what are you hoping to get instead? That's like getting a free Epic Prowess and Epic Toughness feat every 3 levels.
Quote: Posted 10/31/09 22:47 (GMT) -- jobluntz
Yea, no Dev. Crit where I'll be taking him. The heavy WM was indeed for the AB bonus, same with the Great STR's, basically trying to max out Base AB with the F/WM/R class combo. Blind Fight is a great idea, but how do I fit it in? Is it a leveling issue, or with the level spread can I not get the feat in?
Simply replace two great strength feats with blind fight and improved knockdown. You would be gaining far more than you would be losing.
Quote: Posted 10/31/09 23:47 (GMT) -- WhiZard
Simply replace two great strength feats with blind fight and improved knockdown. You would be gaining far more than you would be losing.
He's got IKD in there already, albeit in epics. Other options include finding another feat for the displaced GRT STR, or dropping starting STR to 16, putting those points somewhere else (CON, DEX), and using the now superfluous GRT STR for BF.
Quote: Posted 10/31/09 23:47 (GMT) -- Magical Master Onion Eater, getting 1 AB and 20 hp as a bonus every 3 levels seems pretty good to me...what are you hoping to get instead?
A bonus feat every other level? Seriously, fighter levels are kinda lame in epics, but it still beats WMs. 1 AB and an epic toughness for three levels is not impressive.
Quote: Posted 11/01/09 01:11 (GMT) -- onion eater
A bonus feat every other level? Seriously, fighter levels are kinda lame in epics, but it still beats WMs. 1 AB and an epic toughness for three levels is not impressive.
Ehh... If given a choice of the two, I'd go with what the extra WM levels have to offer.
Please dont bug onion. He isnt always in the know on things. WM gets a bonus AB for 3 lvs, fighter gets a feat. What feat IN EPIC are you gonna take? Epic toughness is what! Or some lame pre-epic feat taken in epic, which isnt always cool. So, for a fighter, the first 3 gets you 1 feat (same as wm), the next gets you 2. BUT you are still 2 ab down with fighter.. hmm. NOW, IF figher allowed Gr str as an epic class feat, WO HO! But it doesnt.
In the end, the ONLY thing fighter has over WM is that you get a feat 2 lvls, and with this build, you dont really need more feats, BUT you can ALWAYS use more AB. Thus, wm >>> fighter in this case.
And Epic toughness isnt too bad! +20 hp >>> nothing! LOL
Quote: Posted 11/01/09 01:11 (GMT) -- onion eater
A bonus feat every other level? Seriously, fighter levels are kinda lame in epics, but it still beats WMs. 1 AB and an epic toughness for three levels is not impressive.
Well, as Avado mentioned, you can look at it like this.
6 "extra" levels of Weapon Master nets you 2 AB and 2 feats (epic toughness).
6 "extra" levels of Fighter nets you 3 feats. Now, you can technically focus in another weapon or something or pick up something like called shot/disarm, but still....
Quote: Posted 11/01/09 03:04 (GMT) -- avado
And Epic toughness isnt too bad! +20 hp >>> nothing! LOL
Indeed. And hell, we knock Epic Toughness for being lame, but let's actually look at it.
Two Great Constitution feats give 40 hp, 1 fortitude, 1 concentration.
Two Epic Toughness feats give 40 hp.
Is that worse? Sure. But only by half a pre-epic feat. And yes, pre-epic Toughness is twice as good as Epic Toughness, which does seem odd, but perhaps regular Toughness is just really good and better than most people give it credit for.
For an epic Fighter, for example, once you get the "needed" feats, getting an Epic Toughness every 2 levels is like getting 20 base hit points per level instead of 10.
Quote: Posted 11/01/09 03:04 (GMT) -- avado
In the end, the ONLY thing fighter has over WM is that you get a feat 2 lvls, and with this build, you dont really need more feats, BUT you can ALWAYS use more AB. Thus, wm >>> fighter in this case.
See, I look at this build and think "gee, I really don't need more AB,* but I sure could use some more feats." Yeah, they're gonna end up being some pre-epic feats in epic, which is lame, but they give the most bang for the bucks. IMO, one of the annoying thing about building WMs is that you get this great AB, but you can't afford the feats that allow you to do more w/ that AB. At least you have to get expertise, but you're very limited in what you can do beyond the essentials. I am very rarely willing to burn epic feats on pre-epics, and I do consider it rather inelegant, but for a WM build, I think it's often worth it.
It's also worth noting that my real recommendation is to take more rogue levels instead of WM. More skill dumps, more skill points, the SA icing, and the potential for IE are all tempting.
*which is not to say that more AB isn't better, as very rarely does anyone have an AB that consistently outclasses his or her opponent's AC, but you do get diminishing returns. AB for this build is great. It doesn't need to be ridiculously great.
Quote: Posted 11/01/09 01:11 (GMT) -- onion eater
Quote: Posted 10/31/09 23:47 (GMT) -- WhiZard
Simply replace two great strength feats with blind fight and improved knockdown. You would be gaining far more than you would be losing.
He's got IKD in there already, albeit in epics. Other options include finding another feat for the displaced GRT STR, or dropping starting STR to 16, putting those points somewhere else (CON, DEX), and using the now superfluous GRT STR for BF.
Yeah, I should have stated getting toughness in there. Though reducing strength by one and putting two points into CON and one into DEX is much better.
