I never really played around with bards before and I like the idea of party-wide bonuses through the bard song, and enemy penalties through curse song. I just don't know how else they could be used other than playing them like a more flamboyant rogue by making a bard's dexterity ability their primary. The problem is that the bard does not have sneak attack and cannot deal the same damage that rogues can, even though with Weapon Finesse they could hit with the same accuracy.

What's a good build plan for a bard? I have a bard entertainer/gambler/dashing hero concept in mind, but I don't want to multiclass.

I play on a server with a level cap of 30 and +4 items, and some subraces have ECL adjustments which reduce the level cap. The subrace I was considering is a human subrace with +2 charisma, -1 strength, -1 constitution applied after creation, and is also given the Artist feat for free, but it does not have an ECL adjustment. The character would still get Quick to Master. I believe I know the server you are speaking about. If it is so, the life of a Bard there is very very easy (lite-RP server with islands?). Before I quit I had a lvl 16 bard there, no multiclass, no subrace, AC 52, and enough AB to kill hordes of Beastmen since he was lvl 14 (before better Song). By the way he was based on STR, not DEX, and I believe most people on these boards will tell you that STR based Bards are better that DEX based in general. If I am right about the server, get your Bard some full plate, longsword and tower shield, leave CHA at 16, invest in Discipline, UMD, Perform and whatever else you want and have fun. You can get Lich Lyrics as early as you can kill said Beastman boss, and after that you have 3 Horrid Wiltings before you have to rest.

Also, it is always a good idea to check Pulse Cap's build search engine, even if it is not for lvl 30 builds you can get tons of ideas from the builds there.
_________________
Like Prometheus we are bound,
Chained to this rock of a brave new world,
Our godforsaken lot. The thing about a strength-based bard with heavy arms and armor is that it really doesn't fit the theme I wanted. Your build does sound interesting and I will think about trying it, but the heavy equipment still sounds more like a secular paladin than a lightly armed scoundrel. True, it doesnt, I overlooked that part of your request, my bad Still, you can surely go DEX based, use whatever weapon you want (if it is the server I spoke about) and purchase Summon Monster scrolls that will get you to lvl 25+ without a sweat. Gold is very very easy to get there, scrolls easy to find, etc. If I am wrong about the server, let me know and we try to get you some better pointers.

Cheers
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How fortunate the man with none.

Bertold Brecht You have the right server. I put role play before fighting, but I also want to have a decent build that can support the party without being a liability too. Pure Bard

Str 11
Dex 16 (32)
Con 13
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 14 (16)

Level 4 and 8 = Charisma
Everything else = Dexterity

1 Extra Music, Curse Song
2
3 Weapon Finesse
4
5
6 Weapon Focus
7
8
9 Knockdown
10
11
12 Blind Fight
13
14
15 Toughness
16
17
18 Improved Knockdown
19
20
21 Lasting Inspiration
22
23 Epic Skill Focus: Perform
24 Epic Weapon Focus
25
26 Great Dexterity I
27 Armor Skin
28
29 Great Dexterity II
30 Epic Prowess
31
32 Great Dexterity III
33 Great Dexterity IV
34
35 Great Dexterity V
36 Great Dexterity VI
37
38 Great Dexterity VII
39 Great Dexterity VIII
40
Quote: Posted 01/21/10 01:55 (GMT) -- Magical Master

Pure Bard
Why? You can play a DEX bard (though you will be sneerfully inferior to a STR bard), and rely more on your bardic goodness than burly manliness, and maybe not be able to hurt a damn thing yourself, but you'll sure make it a heck of a lot easier for your allies to put the hurt on, but why pure? At least fit some fighter levels in there for feats, even if APR is wasted.

Heck, this may not fit the idea you've got in your head, but a CHA focused Bard/BG could be fun, even w/ DEX taking precedence over STR. I don't know why I should muticlass, as there's really nothing which would fit the theme. Blackguard really seems out of character.
Quote: Posted 01/21/10 02:02 (GMT) -- onioneater

Why?

Because

Quote: Posted 01/20/10 20:15 (GMT) -- innic

but I don't want to multiclass.

Quote: Posted 01/21/10 02:02 (GMT) -- onioneater

You can play a DEX bard (though you will be sneerfully inferior to a STR bard), and rely more on your bardic goodness than burly manliness, and maybe not be able to hurt a damn thing yourself, but you'll sure make it a heck of a lot easier for your allies to put the hurt on, but why pure? At least fit some fighter levels in there for feats, even if APR is wasted.

He'll have (with +12 dex from spells/items) 8 more AC than a strength based bard, and if he uses a small shield +5 or whatever that'll only go down to a 6 AC lead.

Some people also *like* the idea of not trying to squeeze in 2-3 levels of a random class and having the idea of a class mean something

Quote: Posted 01/21/10 02:45 (GMT) -- innic

I don't know why I should muticlass, as there's really nothing which would fit the theme. Blackguard really seems out of character.

A bard with some fighter training could conceivably work, maybe, it would like you pick up an extra 6 damage and martial proficiency at the least. Light melee skirmisher idea. There aren't any martial weapons that are finessable, so that feat isn't needed. I do like the idea of getting Weapon Specialization, but then would that cut into bard song?
Quote: Posted 01/21/10 05:19 (GMT) -- innic

There aren't any martial weapons that are finessable, so that feat isn't needed.

Rapier? Short sword? Handaxe?

Full list is dagger, handaxe, kama, kukri, light hammer, mace, rapier, shortsword, sickle, whip, and unarmed strike.

Quote: Posted 01/21/10 05:19 (GMT) -- innic

I do like the idea of getting Weapon Specialization, but then would that cut into bard song?

You'll get 1 less use per day per level lost...which means you'd "only" have 30+ uses of a song that lasts 10 minutes. So no. And Bard Song, by default, stops getting better after level 30. I forgot that some of those weapons were martial; I'm used to playing elves which get racial rapier and long sword proficiency. I'll think about a 26 bard/4 fighter build...

Edited By innic on 01/21/10 06:42

Oh, sorry, somehow I completely missed the level 30 cap. I'll work on a level 30 build with a few fighter levels. Yep, 26 Bard/4 Fighter is pretty solid. You can get 4 APR and WS or have 3 APR and EWS (17 Bard/3 Fighter pre-epic). If you don't care for the extra Epic Bonus Feat at Bard 26 you can get 4 APR and EWS with Bard 25/Fighter 5 and still only be Dispelable by Mord's. Rapier is a good choice there also as there are many Dev Critters that craft Rapiers with the Mythal system and some may be available for purchase in the stores in Cordor.

But... If you really want your parties to love you go Bard 30 all the way, investing all the levels in Perform and getting all the Perform-enhancement feats (Artist, Skill Focus, ESF) because with the Mythal system you can add up to +5 Perform in all or most your items and that will give you maximum Bard Song (requires 100 Perform). From the login screen (where you can see people's builds) I have never seen a pure lvl 30 Bard there, which will surely make your character unique and wanted (or so I would guess). Just invest in Discipline, Tumble, Perform and UMD and you are pretty much covered skill-wise. Other skills to suit your tastes (Spot being nice to prevent Pick Pocket, Spellcraft for saves against spells, and the Craft skills if you plan on using the Mythal system heavily yourself).

Hope this post was more helpful than the other one, and apologies for not posting a build.

Cheers and good luck with your Bard.

PS- If your character is ever to meet Dwagin's character (female tiefling that retired from Business after getting stinky rich) try and get her to modify your armor. Your Bard's vanity will definetly thank you, because that horned (not horny, you perverts) lass can surely craft some seriously good-looking armors.
_________________
Like Prometheus we are bound,
Chained to this rock of a brave new world,
Our godforsaken lot. Why not use RDD? You dont need 10 lvls of it. I have seen 4 used quite nicely at times (that way you dont have the wings). Just a thought.
Quote: Posted 01/21/10 22:50 (GMT) -- OCNT Dogo

I have never seen a pure lvl 30 Bard there, which will surely make your character unique and wanted (or so I would guess).

Not really. Here's the Bard Song progression: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Bard_song

Compared to level 26, level 30 (if you get 100 perform) gives +8 temp hp, +1 AC, and +4 skills.

The level 26 bard song gives 2 AB, 3 damage, 3 will, 2 fort, 2 reflex, 40 temp hp, 6 AC, and +15 skills. Well, I guess it is for the OP to decide, that was my suggestion. I would personally favor a character in my party that can give me +1 AC and + 4 to skills if I were still playing in the PvP heavy environment of the server we were talking about. AC and AB are never too much, Curse Song making it even easier for the WMs to Knockdown (-4 to Discipline) while Bard Song makes it harder for anyone to to KD the ones in said party (another +4 to Discipline).

That and the fact that I will shamelessly promote pure bards being it justifiable or not
_________________
It's fear of god that brought us to that state.
How fortunate the man with none.

Bertold Brecht
Quote: Posted 01/21/10 05:15 (GMT) -- Magical Master

Quote: Posted 01/21/10 02:02 (GMT) -- onioneater

Why?

Because

(quote)Posted 01/20/10 20:15 (GMT) -- innic

but I don't want to multiclass.
Then the question becomes: why you don't want to multiclass in a game which is built around multiclassing and around using features from different classes synergizing to get the most effective result possible?
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Quote: Posted 01/22/10 13:48 (GMT) -- Kail Pendragon

Then the question becomes: why you don't want to multiclass in a game which is built around multiclassing and around using features from different classes synergizing to get the most effective result possible?

Kail, i have stopped asking this sort of question. As of late, it seems that power gaming in nwn has died. My philosophy of game play has been, i can help the party best by helping myself by making the strongest character i can. Today, people want to be like necromancers from my old Diablo 2 days, and stand back watching their party do all the work (cept the party are actual people not minions!).

The even bigger question in my mind though, is WHY would anyone need ECB help for a single class character? It is beyond my comprehension. oh well.
Quote: Posted 01/22/10 15:48 (GMT) -- avado

The even bigger question in my mind though, is WHY would anyone need ECB help for a single class character? It is beyond my comprehension. oh well.

Perhaps because they cant get the result they want from the single class build they envision.
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Quote: Posted 01/22/10 18:26 (GMT) -- Mick Dagger

Perhaps because they cant get the result they want from the single class build they envision.
That's often one of the reasons why one multiclasses My 2 cents worth are absolutely not meant to be rude.

I would not have posted anything about pure builds ever but for two reasons mainly (in the Guild, not only this post), those being a specific thread dealing with them (I always thought the idea appealing, but was not sure they belonged here) and some time after a build posted by the veteran The_Krit (Combat Mistress, a pure build fighter without WS no less). I thought, hey, after all there are people who can surely powerbuild better than I can and are also interested in concepts in lieu of power at times. Also I understand (perhaps erroneously) that Epic Character Builds are any builds that take the character to epic levels and have any value at all, even if it is for fewer players than the whole of the guild. I would refrain from such posting and such suggestions should the name for the guild be Epic Multiclassed Powerbuilds.


More on topic, the suggestion for pure bard was based on my (limited, I confess) knowledge of the Amia server (where the OP plays) and its boards, where there is a thread that focuses on building characters for the server, and believe me, there is nothing but Powerbuilding and maximizing there. I assumed the OP had read their boards, and was not all happy with what they read, coming to the ECB in hopes to have the best fun he could get with his character, and trusting that someone here would give him ideas. If in doing so I am contributing to the death of NWN powerbuilding or offering ideas or posts that are contrary to what the Guild expects their forums to be, I can understand and decide on a course of action based on what moderators/owners tell me about the matter. I try (and fail at times, I am sure) not to infer too much on people's reasons.

Cheers
_________________
Like Prometheus we are bound,
Chained to this rock of a brave new world,
Our godforsaken lot.

Edited By OCNT Dogo on 01/22/10 22:02

Quote: Posted 01/22/10 22:00 (GMT) -- OCNT Dogo

Also I understand (perhaps erroneously) that Epic Character Builds are any builds that take the character to epic levels and have any value at all, even if it is for fewer players than the whole of the guild.

Very intelligent! The only reason i highlighted this secion is cuz it is so very different from why i became part of this guild. I first asked Torias about building and he pointed me to Anuis' wonderful guild way back when. I joined cuz i wanted to understand the game and what made me NOT die! LOL Simple enough goal. Over the years, the ECB has had alot of non-power gamer builds posted (almost all my non-PRC builds would never be considered power builds if you look through the builders index), and yes, they were concepts to see if they could achieve an aim the builder had in mind. And indeed there are LOTS of them! I even remember a time where i thought it would be a neat idea to create a "name" character! Like, what would AVADO be in a game? LOL Not a power build, i can assure you. It took me several years to "get it" right for me.

Now, like Kail says, ALL builds are welcome here. There may even be some pure builds around, who knows. The thing is, a pure build really requires no planning. With bard, you just need to know the reqs for Lasting Inspir or whatever and RUN! It aint rocket science. Now, ther REASON you multiclass has to do with ADDING to where the character is deficient. Bards, esp dexers, require damage. Adding 4 ftr lvls can net you EWS in your weapon of choice, which is equivalent to 12 additional str points for damage calculation. Not to shabby on a low damage build. That would be a 26/4 split with a VERY solid bard song. Would you need a 3rd? Not with this skill set. BUT, look at what a 22b/4ft/4rdd gets you! You can add +4 str (+1 ac) which is +2 damage on top of it. Yes, your bard song isnt as good, but you now can tank a bit.

Heck, you could even add 1-4 lvls or PM for an AC boost (seen that done with 1 lv)! We arent talking HUGE changes, but still, they can make a difference vs a straight 30 or 40lvls of a class.

So dont get us wrong. There is nothing inherantly wrong in a pure build. The question is, why not take an idea and make it stronger?
Quote: Posted 01/22/10 13:48 (GMT) -- Kail Pendragon

Then the question becomes: why you don't want to multiclass in a game which is built around multiclassing and around using features from different classes synergizing to get the most effective result possible?

Because the game is built around classes and prestige classes.

See the bottom row of this comic strip: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

People tend to have archetypes of characters, such as the stalwart longsword wielding fighter. If you said "Psst! You can take 4 rogue levels and get 4 extra AC along with UMD" they'd probably say "But I'm a fighter!" People want classes to mean something instead of just being a way to get x feat or y skill.

If you play WoW or Guild Wars or Everquest or any other number of games, you'll note that you pick *one* class and go with it, but you can specialize (sort of like a prestige class). That mentality is what people think of.

Quote: Posted 01/22/10 15:48 (GMT) -- avado

Kail, i have stopped asking this sort of question. As of late, it seems that power gaming in nwn has died. My philosophy of game play has been, i can help the party best by helping myself by making the strongest character i can. Today, people want to be like necromancers from my old Diablo 2 days, and stand back watching their party do all the work (cept the party are actual people not minions!).

Power-gaming hasn't died. However, taking 1 paladin and 1 monk level in a sorcerer build has died, for the most part. Some people will scream that you're power-gaming if you make a fighter with 8 wis and 8 cha, or a sorcerer with 8 dex and 8 str. Your definition of power-gaming certainly isn't universal.

People still often want to make the strongest characters, but they want to do so within a concept, not mixing and matching classes. A wizard who spends his 7 standard epic feats on Epic Reputation and Skill Foci will not be as powerful as he could be.

Quote: Posted 01/22/10 15:48 (GMT) -- avado

The even bigger question in my mind though, is WHY would anyone need ECB help for a single class character? It is beyond my comprehension. oh well.

Because it still matters? Knowing what feats to get and when they're important...the idea that if you're a level 40 fighter you should NOT get Epic Weapon Focus at level 21 and instead get a Great Stat feat or another non-fighter specific feat is something many people don't realize. A level 40 fighter built by me would trounce the level 40 fighters of many other players. dude, theres the RECOMMEND button!!

*edit: LOVE the cartoon man! Me thinks that ftr/rog/sorc would be amazing! Make it Wisdom based! Give it a butter knife and WHAMO!! Uber build! dude, i think you got me out of retirement

I didnt mean to imply that powergamin was dead. INfact, being the ONLY reason i have found to play nwn consistently with any kind of excitement, i hope it wouldnt be! It just seems that, as of late, people are asking about things like PURE builds, Iconic builds, and charisma paladins! Yes, these are all viable. Yes, they are all part of the game. Yes, yes yes yes...

maybe we should get magi to hold a clinic on powergamin!

(for the record.. i was kidding bout retirement. I just STOPPED playing, cuz quitting would be a blow to my ego!)

Edited By avado on 01/23/10 03:35

Mhe, powergaming was only an wannabe attempt before I entered this guild and learned from the pros. What I thought was a powerful building wasn't really near the big shots. I do believe this guild should be a place where the newcomers learn how building should be done, because a build well made is not necessarily a god of death but it takes smart choices to improve its abilities. When people don't want to do that, it seems they only want someone else to do the building in their place, so yeah, I agree with avado, Pure builds make no sense, but after telling people that pure builds are not intelligently built, there's nothing else I'd like to add, the rant usually goes on and on, drop it dude.
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Quote: Posted 01/23/10 03:29 (GMT) -- avado

dude, theres the RECOMMEND button!!

If you're ever feeling crazy, design a level 40 rogue build. Then try using the recommend button and seeing how utterly pathetic a level 40 rogue made with the recommend button is compared to your build.

Quote: Posted 01/23/10 03:29 (GMT) -- avado

I didnt mean to imply that powergamin was dead. INfact, being the ONLY reason i have found to play nwn consistently with any kind of excitement, i hope it wouldnt be! It just seems that, as of late, people are asking about things like PURE builds, Iconic builds, and charisma paladins! Yes, these are all viable. Yes, they are all part of the game. Yes, yes yes yes...

Most places have at least some restriction on multiclassing and RP worlds tend to have more restrictive rules on average. Stuff like 5 levels minimum per class would be a fairly lax rule, some places require 2-3 levels of a class when you take it, 10 levels of each class, only 1 prestige class, etc. So when you see people asking about pure builds, it's for RP purposes but they want to be as powerful as they can be within that framework.

Quote: Posted 01/23/10 04:51 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia

Mhe, powergaming was only an wannabe attempt before I entered this guild and learned from the pros.

Out of curiosity, how would you define power-building/power-gaming? Everyone seems to define it differently.

Quote: Posted 01/23/10 04:51 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia

When people don't want to do that, it seems they only want someone else to do the building in their place, so yeah, I agree with avado, Pure builds make no sense, but after telling people that pure builds are not intelligently built, there's nothing else I'd like to add, the rant usually goes on and on, drop it dude.

Many times they're coming here to learn things and figure out what works well, even if it's for a level 8 build or something, so they know the best feats/starting stats/etc for said build. Different worlds have different rules and people try to improve within their framework.
Quote: Posted 01/21/10 05:15 (GMT) -- Magical Master

Quote: Posted 01/21/10 02:02 (GMT) -- onioneater

Why?

Because

Quote: Posted 01/20/10 20:15 (GMT) -- innic

but I don't want to multiclass.
Ah, missed that. I didn't really intend to question that. "I don't want to" is a perfectly acceptable explanation.

Quote: and then...

Some people also *like* the idea of not trying to squeeze in 2-3 levels of a random class and having the idea of a class mean something
A) it aint a 'random' class. B) I know a lot of people feel this way. I don't get it. Folks get so caught up in the names of things. Seems to me, if you like the results, who cares what the words are? Besides, say you've got a fighter build, w/ a few rogue levels. What fighter doesn't have a bit of rogueishness? The vast majority of fighter like archetypes would do just fine w/ a bit of rogue. The vast majority of bardic types would do just fne w/ a bit of fighter. That said, I can certainly see how the vast majority of bardic types wouldn't have any RDD levels...

Edited By onioneater on 01/23/10 19:08

Quote: Posted 01/23/10 00:19 (GMT) -- Magical Master
People want classes to mean something instead of just being a way to get x feat or y skill.
But... but... that's exactly what the classes mean! If you're relying on the title of a class, or the names of feats, or whatnot, to define you're character, methinks you need a bit more imagination in your roleplay. All a build is is a collection of feats, skills, abilities, HP, etc. The character part comes from the player.

Quote: Posted 01/23/10 03:29 (GMT) -- avado

dude, theres the RECOMMEND button!!
You mean the self-destruct button? That's not a very nice recommendation. I don't see what is so hard to understand why someone would want a single class epic build and ask for help on making that build the best it can be. If I just guessed and took what feats I thought looked neat or useful, I may end up with a crappy build. It may seem obvious which feats to choose for a single class build to an experienced builder, but not everyone has that knowledge. Even a single class epic build can be royally screwed up if someone doesn't know what they're doing. Even if someone does know what they're doing, it's still good to get advice or opinions from others. That's what I thought the point of this group was. I asked for suggestions for a decent epic bard build which would fit in the world I play and also work with the concept I came up with because I never played a bard before and I had ideas on how to best build one but was not sure if it would work well.

Most of my characters are single class or take one prestige class. Why? I have a hard time justifying why a character would take classes in another primary class. "Hi everyone, I'm a max-level cleric with one token monk level because I happened to take a night class in self-defense while I studied in the temple, and it's somehow enough to give me a huge defensive boost in battle." Runners-up include the wizard/rogue, fighter/barbarian, and paladin/any charisma class.

Sure, I could take a prestige class, but what prestige classes would go good with bard? There's Arcane Archer, Champion of Torm, Harper Scout, Red Dragon Disciple, and Shadowdancer, and none of those classes fit in with what I would like to play. I've never played Dungeons and Dragons, so for all I know there's probably dozens of prestige classes that would make my bard more like the kind of bard I'd like to play, but that is just not possible in NWN.

A fighter/bard with heavy armor and weapons might be an awesome build. It doesn't hit as accurately as a fighter, but with bard song, curse song, and lasting inspiration, it can be really powerful. But why can't a bard be like Elan with his Dashing Swordsman prestige class? I don't see Elan walking around in + 5 full plate.

Edited By innic on 01/23/10 21:28

Quote: Posted 01/23/10 21:22 (GMT) -- innic

I don't see what is so hard to understand why someone would want a single class epic build and ask for help on making that build the best it can be. If I just guessed and took what feats I thought looked neat or useful, I may end up with a crappy build. It may seem obvious which feats to choose for a single class build to an experienced builder, but not everyone has that knowledge. Even a single class epic build can be royally screwed up if someone doesn't know what they're doing. Even if someone does know what they're doing, it's still good to get advice or opinions from others. That's what I thought the point of this group was. I asked for suggestions for a decent epic bard build which would fit in the world I play and also work with the concept I came up with because I never played a bard before and I had ideas on how to best build one but was not sure if it would work well.

There's ALWAYS the Recommend button! Seriously, that button is there to help those who dont want to build, build a build that can at least, be there. Will it be strong? Probably not! (though, i did design a build one time with PRC rules that DID recommend the EXACT feats i wanted in Epic! Was goin for a Gr St 10 build, and lo and behold, for the Brawler class, that was the Recommended feat!). It the builder doesnt want to build and doesnt want to follow a build, that button IS helpful.. at least more so than takin Combat cast with a pure fighter!! (i know it cant be done, but sue me)

Quote: 
Most of my characters are single class or take one prestige class. Why? I have a hard time justifying why a character would take classes in another primary class. "Hi everyone, I'm a max-level cleric with one token monk level because I happened to take a night class in self-defense while I studied in the temple, and it's somehow enough to give me a huge defensive boost in battle." Runners-up include the wizard/rogue, fighter/barbarian, and paladin/any charisma class.
I understand 1,000%. But powergamers dont worry too much about RP! Its a different game entirely me thinks

Quote: 
Sure, I could take a prestige class, but what prestige classes would go good with bard? There's Arcane Archer, Champion of Torm, Harper Scout, Red Dragon Disciple, and Shadowdancer, and none of those classes fit in with what I would like to play. I've never played Dungeons and Dragons, so for all I know there's probably dozens of prestige classes that would make my bard more like the kind of bard I'd like to play, but that is just not possible in NWN.

A fighter/bard with heavy armor and weapons might be an awesome build. It doesn't hit as accurately as a fighter, but with bard song, curse song, and lasting inspiration, it can be really powerful. But why can't a bard be like Elan with his Dashing Swordsman prestige class? I don't see Elan walking around in + 5 full plate.

I think you should look at the PRC rules. Seriously! There are some GREAT PRC for Bards that need 5 or 10 lvls. That way you can get 30 bard AND another singin class.
Quote: Posted 01/23/10 19:07 (GMT) -- onioneater

A) it aint a 'random' class.

I'm referring to this sentiment expressed on these boards: "One just needs to add a UMD/Tumble class to round it off."

Quote: Posted 01/23/10 19:07 (GMT) -- onioneater

B) I know a lot of people feel this way. I don't get it. Folks get so caught up in the names of things. Seems to me, if you like the results, who cares what the words are?

Because the names are supposed to mean something. And multiclassing isn't used to shore up a weakness while reducing a strength, it's used to give a massive flat out power bonus. Compare a 40 wizard, 40 fighter, and 20 wizard/20 fighter. One is a pure caster, one is a pure melee, one is a spellsword. Then look at a 38 wizard/2 fighter who took the two fighter levels for armor proficiency and two bonus feats.

Look at Lord of the Rings if you want another example. Gimli is a dwarf fighter. You'll note he never said "Hmm, I can give up 4 levels of fighter for 4 more AC, UMD, 2d6 sneak, and some extra skill points!"

Or look at games like Lords of Magic, Warcraft III, World of Warcraft, Guild Wars, etc. There are heroes or your character that are a certain class. There's no such thing as "multiclassing" a Paladin hero in WC3 with a level or two of Archmage for Summon Water Elemental or whatever.

That's what people think of. The idea that if you want to be the best fighter, go pure fighter. If you want to sacrifice some combat capability for skills, then multiclass with rogue. But what we actually see is that a fighter/rogue is better in straight up combat than a pure fighter.

Quote: Posted 01/23/10 19:12 (GMT) -- onioneater

But... but... that's exactly what the classes mean! If you're relying on the title of a class, or the names of feats, or whatnot, to define you're character, methinks you need a bit more imagination in your roleplay. All a build is is a collection of feats, skills, abilities, HP, etc. The character part comes from the player.

Really?

See, I was under the mistaken impression that a class represented a career and archetype for a character that was self-contained. And that each class was supposed to offer something relatively unique or exclusive, such as Weapon Specialization or Death Attack. And that each class had advantages and disadvantages.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Class

"A class is a profession or vocation for a character. It determines what he or she is able to do: combat training, magical ability, skills, and more. Selection of a class for a character is typically based on the core concept for the character. The eleven basic selections can approximate almost any character concept, and often several options are available."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_class

"In role-playing games, a common method of arbitrating the capabilities of different characters is to assign each one to a character class. A character class aggregates several abilities and aptitudes, and may also sometimes detail aspects of background and social standing or impose behaviour restrictions. Classes may be considered to represent archetypes, or specific careers."

"There are also character classes that combine features of the classes listed above and are frequently called hybrid classes. Some examples include the Bard, a cross between the thief and mage with an emphasis on interpersonal skills, mental and visual spells, and supportive magical abilities - such as singing a positive stats-aiding song, or the Paladin, a cross between the fighter and cleric with slightly decreased combat skills but various innate abilities that are used to heal or protect allies and repel and/or smite evil opponents."

"Classes provide direction and limitations for characters. For example, a thief will usually be provided abilities such as lock picking, but probably would not be able to wield magic as well as a mage (or, depending on the game, possibly not at all). Game designers use the limitations provided by classes to encourage (or enforce) interdependence among characters."

"Some RPGs feature another variation on the classes mechanic. For example in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, players choose a career. The career works like a class with added bonuses or skills related to the selected career. However as the player advances and gains more experience he or she may choose a new career according to a predefined career path. A player might start as a warrior and choose a career path to become a mercenary or choose a different path to become a dragonslayer. The warrior's available career paths do not allow the player to become a mage, similar to the restriction that one cannot change classes."

Quote: Posted 01/23/10 19:12 (GMT) -- onioneater

You mean the self-destruct button? That's not a very nice recommendation.

Oddly enough, a recommend button fighter is half-decent, pretty much everything else is self-destruct though.
Quote: Posted 01/23/10 23:24 (GMT) -- avado
I understand 1,000%. But powergamers dont worry too much about RP! Its a different game entirely me thinks
I oh-so-strongly disagree. It aint about powergaming vs. RP. Those things are by no means mutually exclusive. One can certainly powergame at the expense of RP, or RP at the expensive of powergaming, but there's nothing stopping someone from doing both. Yes, I like to RP strong characters.

In brief, concerning the recommend button, while every once in a blue moon it gets things right (you can recommend button a cleric build too, with pretty decent results), I would under no circumstances recommend a player use the recommend button, unless, you know, you like getting stuck w/ Dirty Fighting.

Quote: And then...
I think you should look at the PRC rules. Seriously! There are some GREAT PRC for Bards that need 5 or 10 lvls. That way you can get 30 bard AND another singin class.
Sure, but I don't think that's an option here. PRC does have some cool PrCs for bards though.
Quote: Posted 01/23/10 23:49 (GMT) -- Magical Master

Because the names are supposed to mean something.
Yes, they provide a title for what that class brings.

Quote: And multiclassing isn't used to shore up a weakness while reducing a strength, it's used to give a massive flat out power bonus.
Well, the massiveness depends, but, sure multiclassing often produces a more powerful build than a single class. C'est la vie.

Quote: Compare a 40 wizard, 40 fighter, and 20 wizard/20 fighter. One is a pure caster, one is a pure melee, one is a spellsword. Then look at a 38 wizard/2 fighter who took the two fighter levels for armor proficiency and two bonus feats.
Uh huh, and...? It seems like you're just illustrating how best to use multiclassing in NWN. I see no value judgement (and, incidentally, if you want to see a great example of a wizard using a token fighter level, check out Eliminster, who is clearly a power-build, and not meant for RP...

Quote: Look at Lord of the Rings if you want another example. Gimli is a dwarf fighter. You'll note he never said "Hmm, I can give up 4 levels of fighter for 4 more AC, UMD, 2d6 sneak, and some extra skill points!"
Gimli is no such thing at all. Gimli is a character of fiction. If I wanted to attempt to represent him in NWN rules, I probably would give him a few rogue levels. The guy did have some idea of how to dodge a blow, and he knew how to look for an opening in his target's defenses. Regardless though, there's really no point to be made here, as we're all free to represent the character however we like. That said, I see no reason whatsoever to limit him to a pure fighter.

Quote: Or look at games like Lords of Magic, Warcraft III, World of Warcraft, Guild Wars, etc. There are heroes or your character that are a certain class. There's no such thing as "multiclassing" a Paladin hero in WC3 with a level or two of Archmage for Summon Water Elemental or whatever.
Um... completely different games. Totally irrelevant.

Quote: That's what people think of. The idea that if you want to be the best fighter, go pure fighter. If you want to sacrifice some combat capability for skills, then multiclass with rogue. But what we actually see is that a fighter/rogue is better in straight up combat than a pure fighter.
If that's what folks thing, then they are mistaken. NWN, and to a lesser extent D&D, most definitely encourages multiclassing. A fighter/rogue is most definitely a better fighter than a pure fighter, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

Quote: See, I was under the mistaken impression that a class represented a career and archetype for a character that was self-contained.
Yes, I would call that a mistaken impression.

Quote: And that each class was supposed to offer something relatively unique or exclusive, such as Weapon Specialization or Death Attack. And that each class had advantages and disadvantages.
This much is true, at least more or less. That said, there's nothing there that implies limiting how classes are combined, and I see absolutely nothing in any of the quotes that follow that would encourage the taking of only one class, at least when applied to NWN.

edited as my quoting abilities have suffered greatly, probably as a result of my inadequate multiclassing.

Edited By onioneater on 01/24/10 01:11

Also, as long as I'm disagreeing with everyone...

I see no reason why one shouldn't ask for help in making a pure build, if one needs help, and this seems the perfect place to do so. Yes, it is pretty simple, but if you don't know how, then ask. One of the constants in NWN is the lack of constants. Every environment is different, and there are often distinct parameters to be considered with building. Often these parameters seem rather silly to me, but that's not the point. If one really needs to build a DEX based fighter in a world that only allows single classed builds, well, then we'll see what we can do (which, in that case, wouldn't be much...). It may be boring to Avado (and myself...), but that aint the point. Guy wants a DEX based pure level 30 bard, then by golly, give the guy what he wants.
Quote: Posted 01/23/10 23:24 (GMT) -- avado

There's ALWAYS the Recommend button! Seriously, that button is there to help those who dont want to build, build a build that can at least, be there. Will it be strong? Probably not!

Just because you don't want to make a sorcerer 38/paladin 1/monk 1 doesn't meant you want your build to suck.

Quote: Posted 01/24/10 01:16 (GMT) -- onioneater

Also, as long as I'm disagreeing with everyone...

I see no reason why one shouldn't ask for help in making a pure build, if one needs help, and this seems the perfect place to do so. Yes, it is pretty simple, but if you don't know how, then ask. One of the constants in NWN is the lack of constants.

Did you miss my two posts on the second page?

Quote: Posted 01/24/10 01:05 (GMT) -- onioneater

Well, the massiveness depends, but, sure multiclassing often produces a more powerful build than a single class. C'est la vie.

With no modifications and no multiclassing rules, aye.

Quote: Posted 01/24/10 01:05 (GMT) -- onioneater

Uh huh, and...? It seems like you're just illustrating how best to use multiclassing in NWN. I see no value judgement (and, incidentally, if you want to see a great example of a wizard using a token fighter level, check out Eliminster, who is clearly a power-build, and not meant for RP...

When someone says "I'm a wizard/fighter," people get the impression they mean the 20 wizard/20 fighter, not the 38 wizard/2 fighter. One is actually dedicated to each class, the other isn't.

And are you seriously trying to claim the fact that Elminster has 1 fighter level and 2 rogue levels to mean he's doing what a 2 fighter/38 wizard does? I can pick that claim apart if you'd like, but Elminster isn't running around in autostilled full plate and getting 40 bonus hp from Epic Toughness. The classes he has are a representation as a development as a character, they're not laid out in a level 1 to 40 build to maximize his power as a character.

Quote: Posted 01/24/10 01:05 (GMT) -- onioneater

Gimli is no such thing at all. Gimli is a character of fiction.

Exactly. So are people's characters. And they're representing characters of fiction.

Quote: Posted 01/24/10 01:05 (GMT) -- onioneater

Um... completely different games. Totally irrelevant.

No, they're not. They're also classed based RPG games that people draw inspirations from. People look at these games and expect to play a single class, multiclass to something like 20 fighter/20 wizard, or get a prestige class, in NWN.

Quote: Posted 01/24/10 01:05 (GMT) -- onioneater

If that's what folks thing, then they are mistaken. NWN, and to a lesser extent D&D, most definitely encourages multiclassing. A fighter/rogue is most definitely a better fighter than a pure fighter, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

A person who dedicates his entire life to nothing but straight up fighting should be worse in a fight than someone who doesn't dedicate his entire life to straight up fighting? That doesn't make you think "Huh?"

And to most people, if you say "Fighter/rogue" you conjure the impression of a split, something like 20 fighter/20 rogue, a person who's more well rounded. You don't conjure the idea of a person who took 4 rogue levels for tumble dumps and UMD.

Quote: Posted 01/24/10 01:05 (GMT) -- onioneater

This much is true, at least more or less. That said, there's nothing there that implies limiting how classes are combined, and I see absolutely nothing in any of the quotes that follow that would encourage the taking of only one class, at least when applied to NWN.

"At least when applied to NWN" could mean a lot of things.

Edited By Magical Master on 01/24/10 10:06

ROFLMAO! Guys, the RECOMMEND button comments were meant to bring attention to the fact that, if you are totally clueless, there IS an option. BUT, more important, IT WAS A JOKE!!!
Quote: Posted 01/24/10 10:05 (GMT) -- Magical Master

When someone says "I'm a wizard/fighter," people get the impression they mean the 20 wizard/20 fighter, not the 38 wizard/2 fighter. One is actually dedicated to each class, the other isn't.

...

A person who dedicates his entire life to nothing but straight up fighting should be worse in a fight than someone who doesn't dedicate his entire life to straight up fighting? That doesn't make you think "Huh?"

And to most people, if you say "Fighter/rogue" you conjure the impression of a split, something like 20 fighter/20 rogue, a person who's more well rounded. You don't conjure the idea of a person who took 4 rogue levels for tumble dumps and UMD.

Fighter is not devoted to all kinds of fighting but rather a particular focused branch dedicated to combat feats.
Rogue is another kind of fighting involving focusing on the opponents weak spots for a sneak attack.
Monk demonstrates another kind of fighting where fists can be used effectively to stun, affect the incorporeal, and the body becomes its own shell of immunity.
Paladins demonstrate a spell-sword like style of fighting, where magical buffs can be used to enhance their combat abilities.
Wizard/Sorcerer represent an offensive spell based form of fighting.

And the list goes on.

Devoting one's entire career to fighting doesn't necessarily mean 40 fighter. I don't see why you even begin to assume that 40 fighter ought to be at all good in a fight purely by reasoning that a fighter specializes in fighting (which he does but a very specific form of fighting). In any event, speaking of 'one's perceptions' of something isn't exactly very useful. Perhaps one not familiar w/ NWN would assume that a fighter 20 is a better combater than a fighter16/rogue4. I don't see the importance of that. In real life, those with some variations in skillset tend to have advantages over those who are more singularly focused. So it is in NWN, regardless of one's initial perceptions. If you want to argue that it shouldn't be such, that's all fine and dandy, but I don't really see the point. It is what it is, for better, or for worse.

Oh, and Avado, phew. I was really worried there for a moment.
Quote: Posted 01/24/10 20:01 (GMT) -- WhiZard

Fighter is not devoted to all kinds of fighting but rather a particular focused branch dedicated to combat feats.
Rogue is another kind of fighting involving focusing on the opponents weak spots for a sneak attack.
Monk demonstrates another kind of fighting where fists can be used effectively to stun, affect the incorporeal, and the body becomes its own shell of immunity.
Paladins demonstrate a spell-sword like style of fighting, where magical buffs can be used to enhance their combat abilities.
Wizard/Sorcerer represent an offensive spell based form of fighting.

Yet I said "straight up fighting," not combat in general. It's like saying a level 35 wizard/5 rogue should be better at arcane spellcasting than a 40 wizard.

Quote: Post by Magical Master

A person who dedicates his entire life to nothing but straight up fighting should be worse in a fight than someone who doesn't dedicate his entire life to straight up fighting? That doesn't make you think "Huh?"

Quote: Posted 01/24/10 20:01 (GMT) -- WhiZard

Devoting one's entire career to fighting doesn't necessarily mean 40 fighter. I don't see why you even begin to assume that 40 fighter ought to be at all good in a fight purely by reasoning that a fighter specializes in fighting (which he does but a very specific form of fighting).

And I'm talking about that very specific form of fighting. In an arena of straight up combat with no tricks and equal gear/items, a 36 fighter/4 rogue will beat a 40 fighter because of the 4 extra AC.

Quote: Posted 01/24/10 20:48 (GMT) -- onioneater

In any event, speaking of 'one's perceptions' of something isn't exactly very useful. Perhaps one not familiar w/ NWN would assume that a fighter 20 is a better combater than a fighter16/rogue4. I don't see the importance of that. In real life, those with some variations in skillset tend to have advantages over those who are more singularly focused.

Except we're talking about an environment that is supposed to be that single focus and the person with the single focus loses in an arena devoted to his single focus.

Quote: Posted 01/24/10 20:48 (GMT) -- onioneater

So it is in NWN, regardless of one's initial perceptions. If you want to argue that it shouldn't be such, that's all fine and dandy, but I don't really see the point. It is what it is, for better, or for worse.

Not true. Among other reasons, this is why there are typically multiclassing restrictions and class modifications made. I've yet to see a PW that hasn't made at least some modification to the default rules.
Quote: by Magical Master

Out of curiosity, how would you define power-building/power-gaming? Everyone seems to define it differently.

I don't want to argue semantics, perhaps I used the wrong word, dunno. You get the idea, power... power.

Quote: by innic
I don't see what is so hard to understand why someone would want a single class epic build and ask for help on making that build the best it can be.

Because making the best out of one class is excessively easy. You're basically killing hundreds of options with the "one class" restriction, leaving such a little amount of options left it's no longer a challenge to choose. My thing against it is that you want us to help you build when our basic premise into building better is to multiclass. Apprentices don't get the right to complain.

Quote: by innic
Even a single class epic build can be royally screwed up if someone doesn't know what they're doing

That's actually a lie. As long as you can read, and you are willing to read at least the tutorials or the manual, you can figure out STR gives bonus to fighting, INT magic with acrane casters, WIS with divine casters, and your character won't royally suck, it will be about as mediocre as any pure build.

My best suggestion is in fact, play a bit before asking questions. Experience is useful in its own, no matter what.

Quote: by onioneater
I see no reason why one shouldn't ask for help in making a pure build, if one needs help, and this seems the perfect place to do so. Yes, it is pretty simple, but if you don't know how, then ask.

They can sure ask, I used to ask like crazy back on the day. But you can't expect every inquiry to get a perfect answer fast and neat, problem is, when we get into this kind of conversations, we're no longer talking about Bards.

I'll be nice for once and add a few suggestions into Bard-building this time, but consider yourself lucky, I still hate Pure builds.

In my opinion, Bards work very nice STR based, at least that's how I've played them, CHA based doesn't work all that good because your offensive spells won't stand as your primary source of damage. Grab a greatsword and you'll deal neat damage, or a scimitar/shield, it's always good.

The bard Song is a very good addition, so take Lasting Inspiration when you reach epic levels. Personally, I like Lingering Song for pre-epics, but it's wasted once you get Lasting Inspiration, you can decide if you need all those 7 pre-epic feats (I take you'll be Human) on better stuff. Take Weapon Focus and Still Spell, those work neat for combat. Blind-Fight is a must for any character that fights.

Make sure you always have a good Perform, don't forget that's an important skill. Take Tumble, Discipline and UMD too, those are great. Spellcraft if you have enough points for it.

Choose buffs mostly in your spellbook, they'll make your life easier.

Not much else in my opinion, it's not a complicated class, you'll have to ask a precise question to get better results.
_________________
"My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."

Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn

Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 01/25/10 03:25

Thax, we are brothers from different mothers (or maybe not!!)

All the arguing about a game. The whole thing is, intelligent MEANINGFUL help can only be given if you play the game, KNOW your play style and know what you want. No one can give you THEIR best build. That ONLY comes from you because it ONLY exists in the game you are playing. It doenst exist as some numbers on a screen or paper. AND, no matter how good you think your build is, you can ALWAYS die by a mistake!

How do i know this? I had the HONOR of logging one time to a server full (5 of 6) people making one of my builds. Unfortunately, NONE had the ability to use it like i did (one even asked how and what Epic spells were!). Yet, i camped that build in areas where people needed 4 to 5 people to survive with NO troubles EVER! ITs all about play style.

Like Thax says, there is no bad questions. Some of us wish that they came with more thought though. Thax and i spent many an hour pouring over build after build to learn the trade of nwn building (too bad it dont pay well). We know what we like for OURSELVES. That doesnt make it right FOR YOU! Thax' advice is bang on and he has the amazing ability to GENERALIZE better than i can, but in the end, it will be your build so DO IT! LOL Have a blast. You will make mistakes but so what? We all did (i had an account with 25 builds that i started and changed my mind on). HAVE FUN! its a game afterall.

Here endeth the sermon....
Quote: Posted 01/24/10 21:31 (GMT) -- Magical Master
Except we're talking about an environment that is supposed to be that single focus and the person with the single focus loses in an arena devoted to his single focus.
Ouch. That sentence hurts. Anyways, that's what I was saying. Having a single focus tends to make you not as good at something as someone who has had at least a slightly broader approach. We're moving well beyond NWN here though. That's been my general experience though. The greats always have a broader background.

Quote: 
Not true. Among other reasons, this is why there are typically multiclassing restrictions and class modifications made. I've yet to see a PW that hasn't made at least some modification to the default rules.
Sure, NWN is highly customizable, and some do attempt to alter the rules to fit a specific vision, but that's neither here nor there. Many PWs do have some multiclassing rules (though many do not, at least not really meaningful ones), for various reasons, but even the ones that are attempting to encourage pure builds seldom succeed. The fact remains that NWN encourages multiclassing, and it certainly seems by design, not just an unintended consequence of rulemaking. If you think there's something to be gained from this line of conversation, please take it another thread. This topic is reserved for discussion on the Bard class as per title
_________________
Ghaash agh akūl - Nazgūl skoiz
Mirdautas vras!
Karn ghaamp agh nūt
Shaut Manwe quiinubat gukh

Summoning - Mirdautas Vras
Quote: Posted 01/20/10 20:15 (GMT) -- innic

I never really played around with bards before and I like the idea of party-wide bonuses through the bard song, and enemy penalties through curse song. I just don't know how else they could be used other than playing them like a more flamboyant rogue by making a bard's dexterity ability their primary. The problem is that the bard does not have sneak attack and cannot deal the same damage that rogues can, even though with Weapon Finesse they could hit with the same accuracy.
The damage dealing potential of the bard is nothing like the SA a rogue deals, or the mega buffs of the cleric. The song let you deal max +3 to damage and the curse song does some direct damage. The spells Magic weapon, GMW, Bull’s, Keen edge, War cry, all can add to weapon damage and Haste adds another attack. Wounding whispers adds reciprocal damage and there are a couple of direct damage spells like Ice storm and the lesser Sound burst. If you have access to lyrics of the lich, the song will work as a horrid wilting spell centred around your character.

Don’t expect a dex based pure bard to be a heavy damage dealer.
Pure strength (as in a strength build) will to some degree help cure this. There are several multiclass options that also will help.

Quote: What's a good build plan for a bard? I have a bard entertainer/gambler/dashing hero concept in mind
Ok, you want to entertain, gamble and be a dashing hero.

If RP is your focus, you can do most of that “out of the engine” by participating in and even initiate events where your character gets the lead role as an entertainer etc. You don’t need a specific build for this though. You can RP an entertainer and storyteller with a lvl 1 character of any class, all you need is the avatar.

If the RP involves any skill check rolls to see if you succeed as a performer, you should add skillpoints to perform to (*sigh*) perform better. For that you will need bard levels.

If your idea of a dashing hero involves any kind of combat experience, one way to go about that is to create a support (read: leader) character that buffs other characters with spells, bard song, curse song and uses the taunt skill to weaken the enemies. You can do that wielding nothing but a lute (or electric guitar (or whatever)). In that case I recommend feats like curse song and lingering song, a high perform skill and taunt skill, and high enough charisma to be able to cast all the spells (cha=16).

If you plan on taking part in any direct enemy confrontation that involves wielding a weapon, bard is a strong choice. It is capable of doing reasonably well on its own as a single class. It has a good selection of class skills and buff spells that are geared towards combat and the song works double wonders when you add curse song.

Quote: but I don't want to multiclass.
I agree with the other posters above that the bard is a class you want to multiclass. It is in fact the most multi class friendly class in the game. It really has a lot to offer other classes and has also much to gain from other classes. It has the widest selection of prestige classes to choose between (along with sorcerer). And the main attraction of the class, the song caps at 30 levels.
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Quote: Posted 01/25/10 13:57 (GMT) -- Mick Dagger

I agree with the other posters above that the bard is a class you want to multiclass. It is in fact the most multi class friendly class in the game. It really has a lot to offer other classes and has also much to gain from other classes. It has the widest selection of prestige classes to choose between (along with sorcerer). And the main attraction of the class, the song caps at 30 levels.

Yes, all true. However I'd like to add there are "sweet spots" regarding the Bard Song, the sweetest being levels 16 and 26 Level 30, as most Bard builders I'm sure will agree, isn't really worth the investment. Esp. with a level cap of 30.
_________________
Ghaash agh akūl - Nazgūl skoiz
Mirdautas vras!
Karn ghaamp agh nūt
Shaut Manwe quiinubat gukh

Summoning - Mirdautas Vras
Quote: Posted 01/25/10 16:06 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ
Yes, all true. However I'd like to add there are "sweet spots" regarding the Bard Song, the sweetest being levels 16 and 26 Level 30, as most Bard builders I'm sure will agree, isn't really worth the investment. Esp. with a level cap of 30.

Don't forget 20 for Lasting Inspiration!
Quote: Posted 01/25/10 21:19 (GMT) -- Endalyor

Don't forget 20 for Lasting Inspiration!

Indeed, thanks.
_________________
Ghaash agh akūl - Nazgūl skoiz
Mirdautas vras!
Karn ghaamp agh nūt
Shaut Manwe quiinubat gukh

Summoning - Mirdautas Vras
Quote: Posted 01/22/10 22:55 (GMT) -- avado

Quote: Posted 01/22/10 22:00 (GMT) -- OCNT Dogo

Also I understand (perhaps erroneously) that Epic Character Builds are any builds that take the character to epic levels and have any value at all, even if it is for fewer players than the whole of the guild.

Very intelligent!

Why thank you for approving of the way I use my brain.


To OP: I believe I heard a lot about ShadowDancer especific items that are IG class-restricted so that they cant be used in the server even if you meet the UMD requirements without taking the SD level. Perhaps the suave bard who dances between the light of Lore and the Shadows of spying could benefit from Shadowdancer levels?
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Chained to this rock of a brave new world,
Our godforsaken lot.
Quote: Posted 01/22/10 22:55 (GMT) -- avado

Quote: Posted 01/22/10 22:00 (GMT) -- OCNT Dogo

Also I understand (perhaps erroneously) that Epic Character Builds are any builds that take the character to epic levels and have any value at all, even if it is for fewer players than the whole of the guild.

Very intelligent! The only reason i highlighted this secion is cuz it is so very different from why i became part of this guild.

I should clarify that this was 2 separate thoughts. The "very intelligent" was in response to what you said in your answer. I truly enjoyed it and felt it moved the conversation along in the right direction. It had NOTHING to do with what i highlighted from your comment, which is what i state next. Sorry for the confusion. I still have troubles with CONTEXT in this forum environment.
Quote: Posted 01/23/10 00:19 (GMT) -- Magical Master

Quote: Posted 01/22/10 13:48 (GMT) -- Kail Pendragon

Then the question becomes: why you don't want to multiclass in a game which is built around multiclassing and around using features from different classes synergizing to get the most effective result possible?

Because the game is built around classes and prestige classes.
Exactly. And around combining them to get the best result possible.

Quote: See the bottom row of this comic strip: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

People tend to have archetypes of characters, such as the stalwart longsword wielding fighter. If you said "Psst! You can take 4 rogue levels and get 4 extra AC along with UMD" they'd probably say "But I'm a fighter!" People want classes to mean something instead of just being a way to get x feat or y skill.
What some people might want out of classes does not change the fact the game is geared around combining classes to get the fittest result possible (and that classes aren't really supposed anymore to mean anything). In some specific cases that can be a single class character, although that is rarely (if at all) true in PnP but it's more frequent in NWN. Yet, generally speaking, multiclassing is the way to go.

Quote: If you play WoW or Guild Wars or Everquest or any other number of games, you'll note that you pick *one* class and go with it, but you can specialize (sort of like a prestige class). That mentality is what people think of.
DnD and NWN are not WoW or Guild Wars or Everquest though. Here you pick your concept and try to get the best combo of classes to represent it. 4 lvls of rogue won't make the staltwart fighter any less of a warrior, they will just make him stronger and this guild exist with the purpouse of improving builds hence why in most cases multiclassing will be suggested.


Quote: Power-gaming hasn't died. However, taking 1 paladin and 1 monk level in a sorcerer build has died, for the most part.
Oh really?

Quote: Some people will scream that you're power-gaming if you make a fighter with 8 wis and 8 cha, or a sorcerer with 8 dex and 8 str. Your definition of power-gaming certainly isn't universal.

People still often want to make the strongest characters, but they want to do so within a concept, not mixing and matching classes. A wizard who spends his 7 standard epic feats on Epic Reputation and Skill Foci will not be as powerful as he could be.
This is really just your opinion although you present it as fact. You want concept, do concept those that want mix and match classes to grab power will do so both today and tommorow as they did yesterday. And all will be happy with doing what they like.
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Let them try
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Quote: Posted 01/23/10 21:22 (GMT) -- innic

I don't see what is so hard to understand why someone would want a single class epic build and ask for help on making that build the best it can be.
Because, generally speaking, multiclassing will improve it.

Quote: If I just guessed and took what feats I thought looked neat or useful, I may end up with a crappy build. It may seem obvious which feats to choose for a single class build to an experienced builder, but not everyone has that knowledge. Even a single class epic build can be royally screwed up if someone doesn't know what they're doing. Even if someone does know what they're doing, it's still good to get advice or opinions from others. That's what I thought the point of this group was. I asked for suggestions for a decent epic bard build which would fit in the world I play and also work with the concept I came up with because I never played a bard before and I had ideas on how to best build one but was not sure if it would work well.

Most of my characters are single class or take one prestige class. Why? I have a hard time justifying why a character would take classes in another primary class. "Hi everyone, I'm a max-level cleric with one token monk level because I happened to take a night class in self-defense while I studied in the temple, and it's somehow enough to give me a huge defensive boost in battle." Runners-up include the wizard/rogue, fighter/barbarian, and paladin/any charisma class.
You don't have to justify anything at all, that's the point. Grab the class and get its features. If you do it right, you'll end up more powerful. Simple as that. And if you really have to justify it, there's plenty of ways to do it. Really, as Master Onion says, people do get too much caught up in the (arbitrary) names of things, as if they meant anything.

Quote: Sure, I could take a prestige class, but what prestige classes would go good with bard? There's Arcane Archer, Champion of Torm, Harper Scout, Red Dragon Disciple, and Shadowdancer, and none of those classes fit in with what I would like to play. I've never played Dungeons and Dragons, so for all I know there's probably dozens of prestige classes that would make my bard more like the kind of bard I'd like to play, but that is just not possible in NWN.

A fighter/bard with heavy armor and weapons might be an awesome build. It doesn't hit as accurately as a fighter, but with bard song, curse song, and lasting inspiration, it can be really powerful. But why can't a bard be like Elan with his Dashing Swordsman prestige class? I don't see Elan walking around in + 5 full plate.
You'll have to play PnP for that or possibly use the PRC hak to get access to the proper PrC.
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Quote: Posted 01/23/10 23:49 (GMT) -- Magical Master

Quote: Posted 01/23/10 19:07 (GMT) -- onioneater

A) it aint a 'random' class.

I'm referring to this sentiment expressed on these boards: "One just needs to add a UMD/Tumble class to round it off."
Out of context quote make excellent strawman arguments.


Quote: Because the names are supposed to mean something. And multiclassing isn't used to shore up a weakness while reducing a strength, it's used to give a massive flat out power bonus. Compare a 40 wizard, 40 fighter, and 20 wizard/20 fighter. One is a pure caster, one is a pure melee, one is a spellsword. Then look at a 38 wizard/2 fighter who took the two fighter levels for armor proficiency and two bonus feats.
So, different results can be achieved through different ways of multiclassing and said results are often not equally powerful. So what? That's the nature of the game.

Quote: Look at Lord of the Rings if you want another example. Gimli is a dwarf fighter. You'll note he never said "Hmm, I can give up 4 levels of fighter for 4 more AC, UMD, 2d6 sneak, and some extra skill points!"
Not pertinent: Gimli is not a DnD based character.

Quote: Or look at games like Lords of Magic, Warcraft III, World of Warcraft, Guild Wars, etc. There are heroes or your character that are a certain class. There's no such thing as "multiclassing" a Paladin hero in WC3 with a level or two of Archmage for Summon Water Elemental or whatever.
Not pertinent.

Quote: That's what people think of.
What you and possibly someone else think of.

Quote:  The idea that if you want to be the best fighter, go pure fighter. If you want to sacrifice some combat capability for skills, then multiclass with rogue. But what we actually see is that a fighter/rogue is better in straight up combat than a pure fighter.
And there's nothing wrong with that, since that is the nature of this game. You don't like it? Play another game. Simple as that.

Quote: 
Really?

See, I was under the mistaken impression that a class represented a career and archetype for a character that was self-contained. And that each class was supposed to offer something relatively unique or exclusive, such as Weapon Specialization or Death Attack. And that each class had advantages and disadvantages.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Class" target="_blank"> http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Class



"A class is a profession or vocation for a character. It determines what he or she is able to do: combat training, magical ability, skills, and more. Selection of a class for a character is typically based on the core concept for the character. The eleven basic selections can approximate almost any character concept, and often several options are available."

A name is just a name. And classes in DnD 3.0/3.5 are exactly what Master Onion mentioned, a collection of powers and skills that determine what a character is able to do. You should check with DnD source material not the NWN Wikia.

Quote:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_class

"In role-playing games, a common method of arbitrating the capabilities of different characters is to assign each one to a character class. A character class aggregates several abilities and aptitudes, and may also sometimes detail aspects of background and social standing or impose behaviour restrictions. Classes may be considered to represent archetypes, or specific careers."

"There are also character classes that combine features of the classes listed above and are frequently called hybrid classes. Some examples include the Bard, a cross between the thief and mage with an emphasis on interpersonal skills, mental and visual spells, and supportive magical abilities - such as singing a positive stats-aiding song, or the Paladin, a cross between the fighter and cleric with slightly decreased combat skills but various innate abilities that are used to heal or protect allies and repel and/or smite evil opponents."

"Classes provide direction and limitations for characters. For example, a thief will usually be provided abilities such as lock picking, but probably would not be able to wield magic as well as a mage (or, depending on the game, possibly not at all). Game designers use the limitations provided by classes to encourage (or enforce) interdependence among characters."

"Some RPGs feature another variation on the classes mechanic. For example in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, players choose a career. The career works like a class with added bonuses or skills related to the selected career. However as the player advances and gains more experience he or she may choose a new career according to a predefined career path. A player might start as a warrior and choose a career path to become a mercenary or choose a different path to become a dragonslayer. The warrior's available career paths do not allow the player to become a mage, similar to the restriction that one cannot change classes."
Which is all meaningless since it's not DnD/NWN specific.
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Quote: Posted 01/24/10 10:05 (GMT) -- Magical Master


Quote: Posted 01/24/10 01:05 (GMT) -- onioneater

Well, the massiveness depends, but, sure multiclassing often produces a more powerful build than a single class. C'est la vie.

With no modifications
Exactly, the game played according to its own rules ie RAW compliant

Quote:  and no multiclassing rules, aye.
Wrong, multiclassing rules are already in the game. And they do allow very powerful combos. You should start accepting it since it's not gonna change and you seem to have an issue with this basic concept.

Quote: 

When someone says "I'm a wizard/fighter," people
You can't speak for the people just for yourself

Quote:  get the impression they mean the 20 wizard/20 fighter, not the 38 wizard/2 fighter. One is actually dedicated to each class, the other isn't.
Both are dedicated to each class according to the levels invested.

Quote: And are you seriously trying to claim the fact that Elminster has 1 fighter level and 2 rogue levels to mean he's doing what a 2 fighter/38 wizard does? I can pick that claim apart if you'd like, but Elminster isn't running around in autostilled full plate
And neither are many mine Wizard 35/Rogue 3/FTR 2 builds for example.

Quote:  and getting 40 bonus hp from Epic Toughness. The classes he has are a representation as a development as a character, they're not laid out in a level 1 to 40 build to maximize his power as a character.
Strawman: unfounded claims.

Quote: 
Quote: Posted 01/24/10 01:05 (GMT) -- onioneater

Gimli is no such thing at all. Gimli is a character of fiction.

Exactly. So are people's characters. And they're representing characters of fiction.
And yet Gimli is not necessarily a pure fighter in the DnD world.

Quote: 
Quote: Posted 01/24/10 01:05 (GMT) -- onioneater

Um... completely different games. Totally irrelevant.

No, they're not.
Yes they are.

Quote: They're also classed based RPG games that people draw inspirations from. People look at these games and expect to play a single class, multiclass to something like 20 fighter/20 wizard, or get a prestige class, in NWN.
People once more? You have got to stop with those unfounded claims. Besides, I have no clue why anyone with a minimum degree of intelligence should expect different games to work the same...

Quote: 

A person who dedicates his entire life to nothing but straight up fighting should be worse in a fight than someone who doesn't dedicate his entire life to straight up fighting? That doesn't make you think "Huh?"
No; a fight is not just straight up fighting and so the more adaptable character should be better in a fight than the one dedicated to just straight up fighting. One can concentrate on many aspects of straight up fighting (many ftr lvls) at the expenses of adaptability and additional non straight-up fighting techniques (rogue lvls); different lvls of balance between the two aspects can be reached with different results. Some combos will be, overall, more powerful. And there's nothing wrong with that. Finally this game is built to encourage multiclassing so it doesn't surprise me at all that more often than not the MC charcater is better than the single class one.

Quote: And to most people,
Any figures for this claim?

Quote:  if you say "Fighter/rogue" you conjure the impression of a split, something like 20 fighter/20 rogue, a person who's more well rounded. You don't conjure the idea of a person who took 4 rogue levels for tumble dumps and UMD.
From a neutral point of view, anything between FTR 39/Rogue 1 and FTR 1/Rogue 39 is a ftr/rogue; further assumptions are unnecessary (and lead to strawman arguments).
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Quote: Posted 01/24/10 21:31 (GMT) -- Magical Master

Yet I said "straight up fighting," not combat in general.
And straight up fighting is made up of AC, Damage Reduction, Resistances, Protection, etc. So no, a pure FTR shoul dnot be better than a FTR/Rogue or a Cleric or a Bard/RDD/PM or whatever in straight up fighting.

Quote: It's like saying a level 35 wizard/5 rogue should be better at arcane spellcasting than a 40 wizard.
No, it is not the same. Arcane spellcasting is exclusive to mage classes (and bards, but to a lesser extent) while fighting is not exclusive to fighters.


Quote: 

And I'm talking about that very specific form of fighting. In an arena of straight up combat with no tricks and equal gear/items, a 36 fighter/4 rogue will beat a 40 fighter because of the 4 extra AC.
And rightly so.

Quote: 
Except we're talking about an environment that is supposed to be that single focus and the person with the single focus loses in an arena devoted to his single focus.
Wrong. The pure FTR is not devoted enough to "his single focus" since the class is not equipped with all the means he would need for that purpouse. Basically, you have a very wrong perception of what the fighter class is in DnD/NWN.

Quote: 
Not true. Among other reasons, this is why there are typically
Figures please, otherwise it's just unfounded claims.

Quote:  multiclassing restrictions and class modifications made. I've yet to see a PW that hasn't made at least some modification to the default rules.
Which is irrelevant, since customization of the game (and you are not even barely delving into the reasons of such changes) does not change how the game, as it has been produced, is supposed to work. Nor does your personal opinion of how it should work. Luckily you can customize it yourself, but then I don't see the point of all the arguing you put up everytime you are reminded what the basic game is.
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We will die And now back to Bards without any further false and unfounded claims regarding the game or "people's" opinion.
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Quote: Posted 01/25/10 16:06 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ

Yes, all true. However I'd like to add there are "sweet spots" regarding the Bard Song, the sweetest being levels 16 and 26 Level 30, as most Bard builders I'm sure will agree, isn't really worth the investment. Esp. with a level cap of 30.
And regarding higher level songs one must consider the available gear since the perform requirements become pretty much insane at the higher levels.
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We will die in all my years i have NEVER seen such PASSION!! ANd to think, i didnt get ONE quote! I must be doing something right

Well put Kail! All i can really say bout bards is, THEY MAKE EXCELLENT (music)RDDS!!
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Quote:  -- Posted by Kail Pendragon

Being hyperbolic is an integral part of Avado's being
Quote: by Kail Pendragon
And now back to Bards without any further false and unfounded claims regarding the game or "people's" opinion.

You heard the boss. I did my part, I'll add something else if someone answers to it.
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Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn I'll respond to those 5 posts by Kail if people desire.
Quote: Posted 02/02/10 02:33 (GMT) -- Magical Master

I'll respond to those 5 posts by Kail if people desire.
I'm pretty sure they don't. That said, I'd be happy to take it up w/ you in PMs. I get where you're coming from, I just think you're wrong. I've looked at all your rule changes too, and while I sympathize, I think the approach you take is, shall we say, misguided. But, as the man says, that discussion has very little to do with bards...
Quote: Posted 02/02/10 02:45 (GMT) -- onioneater

I'm pretty sure they don't.

Aye. And it's an even worse waste of my time to type up a rebuttal if others aren't interested in reading it Doesn't matter to me either way.

Quote: Posted 02/02/10 02:45 (GMT) -- onioneater

That said, I'd be happy to take it up w/ you in PMs. I get where you're coming from, I just think you're wrong. I've looked at all your rule changes too, and while I sympathize, I think the approach you take is, shall we say, misguided. But, as the man says, that discussion has very little to do with bards...

Up to you on the PMs. If you want to, sure, if you don't care, sure. By rule changes I assume you're referring to the WoG post?

This is my last off-topic post on this thread, unless it gets derailed again. As far as suggestions for pure bards go from my side:

Str 14
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 16

could be a good starting spread for a Str bard, possibly STR 15/Dex 8. Key features are Curse Song, Still Spell, Craft Wand, Lasting Inspiration and possibly, depending on gear available, Artist, SF: Perform and ESF: Perform. Good feats to select are BF, KD, WF/EWF, IC, EP, AS for combat prowess, Great Strength, Great Charisma and ESF feats.

Of course without powerful Perform gear available higher level song are just a pipe dream even with all the perform enhancing feats.

If suggestions for multiclassing are welcome, without cutting too much into bard levels and without making the character any less bardic I'd consider Bard 25/FTR 5 for enhanced combat prowess or Bard 20/FTR 6/BG 4 to achieve a powerful song (together with LI) within the character's reach, combat prowess and an extra help from divine feats. Undispellability is lost, but the build is pretty nice.

As a final consideration one can have a bard 30 that is no bard at all or a bard 0 which is the epitome of bardicness, if by bard we mean, to make it simple, a storyteller. So really I wouldn't be too much attached to class purity becuase it doesn't mean much at all.
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Edited By Kail Pendragon on 02/02/10 14:47

Quote: Posted 01/29/10 18:12 (GMT) -- avado

Quote: Posted 01/22/10 22:55 (GMT) -- avado

Quote: Posted 01/22/10 22:00 (GMT) -- OCNT Dogo

Also I understand (perhaps erroneously) that Epic Character Builds are any builds that take the character to epic levels and have any value at all, even if it is for fewer players than the whole of the guild.

Very intelligent! The only reason i highlighted this secion is cuz it is so very different from why i became part of this guild.

I should clarify that this was 2 separate thoughts. The "very intelligent" was in response to what you said in your answer. I truly enjoyed it and felt it moved the conversation along in the right direction. It had NOTHING to do with what i highlighted from your comment, which is what i state next. Sorry for the confusion. I still have troubles with CONTEXT in this forum environment.

No worries avado, it wasn't that out of context or even rude reading it now. Perhaps a bad day on my part.


On topic and adding to Kail's post: For the specific server the OP plays on Scribe Scroll is considered more useful than Craft Wand, but even so both scrolls and wands are random drop from monsters only, thus rare and expensive (if you manage to find them at all). There is crafting there that enables one to add enough Perform to items to reach maximum Song (level 30 Bard Song, that is). Blackguards are PvP targets (if the OP is not already aware), which is not bad in and of itself, just something to consider.
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Quote: Posted 02/02/10 17:18 (GMT) -- OCNT Dogo

On topic and adding to Kail's post: For the specific server the OP plays on Scribe Scroll is considered more useful than Craft Wand, but even so both scrolls and wands are random drop from monsters only, thus rare and expensive (if you manage to find them at all).
Not being aware of the server's specifities (and of any changes to standard game behaviour) I'd just like to add that a few points in craft weapon will make the raw material to craft a bone wand available by killing skeletons (which will drop a large bone that can be crafted into a bone wand which can be enchanted with a spell).

Quote:  There is crafting there that enables one to add enough Perform to items to reach maximum Song (level 30 Bard Song, that is).
That is good to know. Bard 30 become much more attractive then.
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Let them try
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Quote: Posted 02/02/10 17:29 (GMT) -- Kail Pendragon

Quote: Posted 02/02/10 17:18 (GMT) -- OCNT Dogo

On topic and adding to Kail's post: For the specific server the OP plays on Scribe Scroll is considered more useful than Craft Wand, but even so both scrolls and wands are random drop from monsters only, thus rare and expensive (if you manage to find them at all).
Not being aware of the server's specifities (and of any changes to standard game behaviour) I'd just like to add that a few points in craft weapon will make the raw material to craft a bone wand available by killing skeletons (which will drop a large bone that can be crafted into a bone wand which can be enchanted with a spell).

Quote:  There is crafting there that enables one to add enough Perform to items to reach maximum Song (level 30 Bard Song, that is).
That is good to know. Bard 30 become much more attractive then.

Indeed, I was aware of the Craft Weapon/Bones mechanic, but it is always a good reminder. As far as I know (can check their boards later on, should the need arise) there is no other way to obtain wands or scrolls in said server apart from getting them in random loot.