I am wondering if someone could point me to some of these build types that use the COT's bonus feats to help with a zen archery /divine might build.

I am wanting to play a halfling actually that uses the shortbow and thought this route may be the way to go.
Quote: Posted 06/08/10 21:38 (GMT) -- Erombil

I am wondering if someone could point me to some of these build types that use the COT's bonus feats to help with a zen archery /divine might build.

I am wanting to play a halfling actually that uses the shortbow and thought this route may be the way to go.
There are so many it isnt funny! Infact, i did a cot concept build for the gr wisdom feats back in 2006.

While COT might be ALOT of info for you, it is NOTHING for a real build. You can do rog/cot, cleric/cot, monk/cot, cleric/monk/cot, fighter/cot, ranger/cot, paladin/cot, and even, god forbid Blackguard/cot! LOL

Now, wanting Divine might limits it to Pal/cot, cleric/cot(monk) and possibly blackguard/cot. Now these 2 (assume that black/cot isnt in the books) play very different.

So, again, the question becomes, what kind of game do you want to play with your wis- cot/zen archer? (btw, you MUST forfeit a feat to do it as COT requires a melee weapon focus which doesnt benefit from wis). I would rather him be a paladin than a cleric. Sort of a concept character to play, not necessarily uber build stuff, just some synergies. I just want a halfing with a shortbow. Low magic server play, solo or group, heavy into COT. And I guess I don't really want him to rely on crits or sneak attacks. A sort of straight shooter, reliable as possible, lol. So a bit of that is ok, rogue/assassin, but I don't want it to be the focus... though that seems like one of the ways to make a halfling archer feasible I want to look into the other side. What lvl are we talking here.
And how COT heavy do you want him.
Is it slow or fast lvling.
Are there any restrictions on the server?

Maybe a tweak of this build: Click Here

or Something like 16Pal 4monk pre epic, 10Cot 3monk 7Pal epic
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Subconscious to Mind: We ROCK! Level 40 eventually, I just assume it needs to be COT heavy to get good WIS and CHA. I don't really want cleric spells, or any sort of buffs to be the selling point. But that is OK, I'm sort of trying to do this and maintain simplicity. OK You want a high-charisma, obviously high-wisdom CoT archer?

Say, how many levels of CoT would you consider heavy? Would a Pal 20 CoT 18 Monk 2 be CoT-heavy enough for ya? If so you can get MAX pre-epic BAB and some monk cheese to top it all out.

If you do as avado suggested, which is a very interesting alternative, and go with Pal Monk Cot, you'll get very decent AC and saves from it, and that is probably the best bet. However, I would tweak that build he referenced by taking 4 stat points out of CHA and adding to WIS for a higher AB / AC, lower damage and saves. Oh, what the hell, I got time, let me see what I can scrape out here.

Something like this, perhaps:

Halfling

STR 13
DEX 16
CON 10
INT 10
WIS 14 (26)
CHA 14 (20)

LEVELLING

1- Paladin (1) - Point Blank Shot
2- Paladin (2)
3- Paladin (3) - Power Attack
4- Paladin (4) - WIS +1 (15)
5- Paladin (5)
6- Paladin (6) - Divine Might
7- Paladin (7)
8- Paladin (8) - WIS +1 (16)
9- Paladin (9) - Improved Critical (Shortbow)
10- Paladin (10)
11- Paladin (11)
12- Paladin (12) - Weapon Focus (Shortbow), WIS +1 (17)
13- Paladin (13)
14- Paladin (14)
15- Paladin (15) - Rapid Shot
16- Paladin (16) - WIS +1 (18)
17- Paladin (17)
18- Paladin (18) - Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
19- Paladin (19)
20- Champion of Torm (1) - CHA +1 (15)
21- Champion of Torm (2) - Epic Weapon Focus (Shortbow), Great Wisdom I (19)
22- Monk (1)
23- Champion of Torm (3)
24- Champion of Torm (4) - Zen Archery, Great Wisdom II (20), CHA +1 (16)
25- Champion of Torm (5)
26- Champion of Torm (6) - Great Wisdom III (21)
27- Paladin (20) - Divine Shield
28- Champion of Torm (7) - CHA +1 (17)
29- Champion of Torm (8) - Great Wisdom IV (22)
30- Champion of Torm (9) - Armor Skin
31- Champion of Torm (10) - Great Wisdom V (23)
32- Champion of Torm (11) - CHA +1 (18)
33- Champion of Torm (12) - Epic Prowess
34- Champion of Torm (13)
35- Champion of Torm (14) - Great Wisdom VI (24)
36- Champion of Torm (15) - Great Wisdom VII (25), CHA +1 (19)
37- Monk (2)
38- Champion of Torm (16)
39- Champion of Torm (17) - ESF: Discipline*
40- Champion of Torm (18) - Great Wisdom VIII (26), CHA +1 (20)

*Extra feat, Choose whatever you like. You can also drop either Epic Prowess or Armor Skin and with this feat get 2 Great Charismas. I'd Drop EP cuz you got enough AB, especially with Paladin buffs.

This is just my brainstorming, so I won't go heavy into skills, but obviously, you want 40 tumble and 43 discipline. The rest is up to ya.

Just a few thoughts:

The 16 starting DEX serves the purpose of playability before you get Zen Archery. On the higher levels it doesn't get wasted because it'll still add to AC, since your Monk AC only renders any armor useless. Also, getting DEX-Enhancing gear will further pump up your AC. Bracers of Dexterity, and a Belt of Agility should do nicely. The delay to take Zen Archery shouldn't make that much of a difference, because at least where I play, DEX-enhancing gear is easier to come across. The only standard item that gives WIS that I know of is the Periapt of WIsdom.

20 Pal are for the extra spell slots, and the difference between Pal 15 and Pal 20 is absurd in terms of that. You gotta make good use of them, especially with this wisdom score and in low magic settings. With Aura of Glory and Eagle's Splendor alone you can get up to +4 Charisma modifier (+9 MAX CHA increase with a good roll). Also you get very nice spells like Death Ward, Freedom, and many good AB buffs, Divine Favor (don't think it works on bows, but not sure either), Prayer, Bless, Aid. Pretty much the whole package . You can Buff your HP with Endurance too. Bull's strength is redundant, but will allow you to carry more stuff

Anyway, hope you like it.

Take it EZ!

Edited By Maximillian Kane on 06/09/10 01:21

Divine Favor happily works while ranged. AWESOME! Any modifications to CoT? Some servers make wrath last longer. Just thought I'd point out that Halfling isn't the best choice, although you do get +1 ab and AC from small stature. If ya go with elf, you can start with THE EXACT SAME STATS, but 14 STR instead of 13 and also use a Longbow instead of a shorbow. So unless its for RP, I'd go with elf. This build doesn't suffer from low ab OR ac, so you should be pretty much ok Difference between shortbow and longbow is inconsequential. Thanks for the build Maximillian Kane. I really like it. I agree elf would probably be better. The fact that elves make the best archers is what got me started wanting to find something like this. But like you said the halfling will have + 1 Ab and AC with the bow out.

I am actually not sure on the changes to the COT special ability for these servers, but I'm also not completely sold on which server I'm sticking with. Just think you should know that BOTH ELF AND HALFLING get an XP penalty at lvl 22. The only race that would not get it is Human.

I just threw this "sketch" into the CBC and found out this build's AMAZING stats and also its most glaring weakness: THE LACK OF SKILL POINTS. You have EXACTLY 40 tumble, 43 discipline and a few leftover points.

AB ranged = 42 (unbuffed and naked) moderately buffable with aid, bless, prayer, Divine Favor + items

AC 31 naked and unbuffed - VERY BUFFABLE with Divine Shield (Backed up by Eagle's Splendor, Aura of Glory and cha enhancing items, need only a +6 nymph cloak to cap cha, but a +5 will cap it 75% of the time), Dex enhancing items, wis enhancing items + regular armor-giving items (Ring of protection, magic monk robes, monk boots).

SAVES 34/37/35 or something similar which is MARVELOUS because they're extremely buffable! +6 from capped cha alone would make them all get past the 40 mark, and having evasion only sweetens it up! Not to mention Endurance to buff both HP and fortitude a little further, dex gear to improve reflex and wis gear to improve will. If you manage to cap all 3, you'd get +12 to saves, now imagine with a cloak of fortification. You can hit the +20 cap easily. But, since it's a low magic world, I doubt you'll cap it. Then again, neither will ur opponents

Glad you liked it! I kinda feel tempted to use it as well after seeing the outcome on the CBC Like I said that was just brainstorming, so although I knew the saves would be high, I didn't know they'd be that high!

Take it EZ! I found out I was using an outdated version of the CBC, so this morning I downloaded the new one and started translating all my builds into the new chart. This one was not quite to my liking, so I began toying with it and came up with a MUCH BETTER spread / feat selection. Check this out!!

Paladin(29), Monk(1), Champion of Torm(10), Elf

STR: 14
DEX: 16
CON: 10
WIS: 14 (28)
INT: 10
CHA: 14 (20)

Elf: (Hardiness vs. Enchantments, Keen Sense, Low-light Vision, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Search, Skill Affinity: Spot, Sleeplessness)
01: Paladin(1): Point Blank Shot
02: Paladin(2): {Smite Evil}
03: Paladin(3): Power Attack
04: Paladin(4): WIS+1, (WIS=15)
05: Paladin(5)
06: Paladin(6): Divine Might
07: Paladin(7)
08: Paladin(8): WIS+1, (WIS=16)
09: Paladin(9): Improved Critical: Longbow
10: Paladin(10)
11: Paladin(11)
12: Paladin(12): WIS+1, Rapid Shot, (WIS=17)
13: Paladin(13)
14: Paladin(14)
15: Paladin(15): Weapon Focus: Longbow
16: Paladin(16): WIS+1, (WIS=18)
17: Paladin(17)
18: Paladin(18): Weapon Focus: Scimitar
19: Paladin(19)
20: Champion of Torm(1): CHA+1, (CHA=15)
21: Champion of Torm(2): Zen Archery, Great Wisdom I, (WIS=19)
22: Champion of Torm(3)
23: Champion of Torm(4): Great Wisdom II, (WIS=20)
24: Paladin(20): CHA+1, Divine Shield, (CHA=16)
25: Champion of Torm(5)
26: Champion of Torm(6): Great Wisdom III, (WIS=21)
27: Paladin(21): Great Wisdom IV, (WIS=22)
28: Champion of Torm(7): CHA+1, (CHA=17)
29: Champion of Torm(8): Great Wisdom V, (WIS=23)
30: Champion of Torm(9): Great Wisdom VI, (WIS=24)
31: Champion of Torm(10): Great Wisdom VII, (WIS=25)
32: Paladin(22): CHA+1, (CHA=18)
33: Paladin(23): Great Wisdom VIII, Epic Weapon Focus: Longbow, (WIS=26)
34: Paladin(24)
35: Paladin(25)
36: Paladin(26): CHA+1, Great Wisdom IX, Armor Skin, (WIS=27), (CHA=19)
37: Monk(1): {Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist}
38: Paladin(27)
39: Paladin(28): Great Wisdom X, (WIS=28)
40: Paladin(29): CHA+1, Epic Prowess, (CHA=20)

Hitpoints: 398
Skillpoints: 88
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 33/35/31
Saving Throw bonuses: Mind Effects: +2
BAB: 30
AB (max, naked): 34 (melee), 43 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 32/32
Spell Casting: Paladin(4)
Alignment Changes: 0

Discipline 43(45), Heal 5(14), Tumble 40(43)

Edited By Maximillian Kane on 07/05/10 19:33

When you use COT with a zen archery build, if you get less than Great wisdom 10, you wasted the build, imo. ESPECIALLY with a wisdom <30! Why do i say this? Like has been alluded too, to get COT you need a melee weapon so you are down one feat already. WHile pal/cot is nice, it has no real source of damage output (sure, divine might, but how many?? LOL) The cleric suggestion is much more powerful because of all the support spells that the character has inately, and the abuse of Divine power/divine favor, you really dont even need a magic bow and you are almost at +20 ab cap as it is (with prayer, etc). If you take div might on top of it, look out! Remember, the pal/cot has no sneaks or any other damage, and really no spell slots to speak of (vs cleric).

My mind is abit rusty as i played with this concept so many years ago, but if i recall correctly, it isnt any fun to be a woodpecker vs an oak tree, OR a dex monk with no damage gear! I understand it takes all kinds!
Quote: Posted 07/05/10 20:57 (GMT) -- avado

When you use COT with a zen archery build, if you get less than Great wisdom 10, you wasted the build, imo. ESPECIALLY with a wisdom <30! Why do i say this? Like has been alluded too, to get COT you need a melee weapon so you are down one feat already. WHile pal/cot is nice, it has no real source of damage output (sure, divine might, but how many?? LOL) The cleric suggestion is much more powerful because of all the support spells that the character has inately, and the abuse of Divine power/divine favor, you really dont even need a magic bow and you are almost at +20 ab cap as it is (with prayer, etc). If you take div might on top of it, look out! Remember, the pal/cot has no sneaks or any other damage, and really no spell slots to speak of (vs cleric).

My mind is abit rusty as i played with this concept so many years ago, but if i recall correctly, it isnt any fun to be a woodpecker vs an oak tree, OR a dex monk with no damage gear! I understand it takes all kinds!

My dear cleric-loving friend. I have to tell you, your mind does seem a bit more rusty than in the old days. Let's compare, shall we?

Pal gets Divine Favor
Cleric gets Divine Favor

Pal gets Prayer
Cleric gets Prayer

Pal gets Bless
Cleric gets Bless

Pal gets Aid
Cleric gets Aid

Pal doesn't get Divine Power*
Cleric gets Divine Power

*Although the Paladin doesn't get it it kinda receives half the bonus (except for the 18 STR, which can be attained with gear / buffs) because the AB is already that of a fighter of the same level.

Pal doesn't get Battletide
Cleric gets Battletide

Pal doesn't get Owl's Wisdom
Cleric gets Owl's Wisdom

Pal gets Eagle's Splendor
Cleric gets Eagle's Splendor

Pal gets Aura of Glory
Cleric doesn't get Aura of Glory

Cleric does have a slight advantage over Paladin in this build AB and Damage-wise for the lack of Battletide and Owl's Wisdom to the latter's spellbook, but it's not that big a deal. And you do get Aura of Glory as a Paladin, which a Cleric does not (there may be a domain that gives you that spell, though, not sure). That compensates for the 2 Battletide damage bonus with Divine Might damage.

When you say that this guy doesn't have ANY damage output, you're pushing it and you know it! It deals a lot of damage, if not as much as the Cleric! I know you can't help yourself given the intensity of your love for Clerics, and if we were all going to follow your advices, all NWN builds would be Cleric 38 / X 1 / Y 1. joking.

Also, the truth is that with a Cleric version you'd hardly ever have a reason to use the bow, which kinda is the point of this build, because the spells would get the job done much faster and more efficiently. That is why I went with Paladin instead. That and the bonus to the saves.

Take it EZ!

Edited By Maximillian Kane on 07/05/10 21:53