Would like a few variations to choose from if possible please.
Build must be Ranger 35/ HS 5 I want to take advantage of Dex feat from HS - someone told me if they are placed in right sequence, I can get +5 Dex from HS lvls
thx in advance _________________ Regards, Chip
Quote: Posted 07/22/10 17:48 (GMT) -- chipelp3 I want to take advantage of Dex feat from HS - someone told me if they are placed in right sequence, I can get +5 Dex from HS lvls
Someone was wrong. If taken in epic levels, HS can take a great DEX at level one, and level five. They also get access to a stackable Cat's Grace, which will buff DEX, but that's not the same. Overall, HS can potentially get you up to +7 to DEX, though for a maximum of five hours.
Quote: Posted 07/22/10 17:48 (GMT) -- chipelp3
Build must be Ranger 35/ HS 5
Must it? There are no 35/5s in the guild (and for good reason). Are you asking for someone to draw you up several, somehow fundamentally different builds that all max what HS can do for DEX, using that split?
hmmm... thank you, onion
forum devs you can delete this topic if you wish _________________ Regards, Chip
I just talked to my buddy and he further explained that it is possible through the epic levels...
Quote: Posted 07/23/10 02:23 (GMT) -- onion eater
Quote: Posted 07/22/10 17:48 (GMT) -- chipelp3 I want to take advantage of Dex feat from HS - someone told me if they are placed in right sequence, I can get +5 Dex from HS lvls
Someone was wrong. If taken in epic levels, HS can take a great DEX at level one, and level five. They also get access to a stackable Cat's Grace, which will buff DEX, but that's not the same. Overall, HS can potentially get you up to +7 to DEX, though for a maximum of five hours.
I misunderstood my friend's explanation - Great Dexterity is on their their Bonus feat list. I can always choose Great Dext as regular feat in epic levels but only would be netting 2 extra Great Dext's in reality.
Quote: Posted 07/23/10 02:25 (GMT) -- onion eater
Quote: Posted 07/22/10 17:48 (GMT) -- chipelp3
Build must be Ranger 35/ HS 5
Must it? There are no 35/5s in the guild (and for good reason). Are you asking for someone to draw you up several, somehow fundamentally different builds that all max what HS can do for DEX, using that split?
No. I did not say "several". I said a "few". Your tone seems belittling and is not appreciated. This is a "Build Request Forum" not a "Belittle A Stranger Forum".
And yes it 'must' be Ranger/HS. _________________ Regards, Chip
Quote: Posted 07/23/10 15:27 (GMT) -- chipelp3
And yes it 'must' be Ranger/HS.
Take HS in epic for the extra grDEXes, take BoE at lvl 21, be sure to grab all the combat feats.
There's really nothing more to it, except how you wanna spend your skillpoints. Personally I'd add a third class. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Quote: Posted 07/23/10 15:27 (GMT) -- chipelp3
No. I did not say "several". I said a "few". Your tone seems belittling and is not appreciated. This is a "Build Request Forum" not a "Belittle A Stranger Forum".
Think of my tone what you will. My intent was to clarify the request, as it didn't seem reasonable to me, and I thought there might have been something miscommunicated, or perhaps that what you requested was not what you wanted.
Besides, I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone was willing to oblige, though I don't see the point. Methinks some folks just love using the CBC so much that any request will be granted.
Towards that end, if you want to see how it looks to build a ranger35/hs5 getting max available DEX, I bet someone would oblige, if not here, then over in that other place which I prefer not to speak of.
Quote: Posted 07/24/10 01:10 (GMT) -- onion eater
Quote: Posted 07/23/10 15:27 (GMT) -- chipelp3
No. I did not say "several". I said a "few". Your tone seems belittling and is not appreciated. This is a "Build Request Forum" not a "Belittle A Stranger Forum".
Think of my tone what you will. My intent was to clarify the request, as it didn't seem reasonable to me, and I thought there might have been something miscommunicated, or perhaps that what you requested was not what you wanted.
Besides, I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone was willing to oblige, though I don't see the point. Methinks some folks just love using the CBC so much that any request will be granted.
Towards that end, if you want to see how it looks to build a ranger35/hs5 getting max available DEX, I bet someone would oblige, if not here, then over in that other place which I prefer not to speak of.
ok, I am not here to play mind games. I rarely come here to bioware forums - probably 10 - 20 times since 2004. Why are you bothering to post here at all if you can't be helpful with a positive spirit instead of these negative undertones and coy about "other places"? If there is another place that can be of better assistance, then just spit it out and I will go "there" in hopes that someone can help me out. _________________ Regards, Chip
I completely agree. It has always bothered me how condescending the regulars can be here.
so I wrote you up this. Pretty basic, just crammed as much dex in as I could.
It has a lot of epic bonus feats, so I figured It could fit both melee and ranged weapon focuses easily and use all the useful ranger bonus feats and still have a ton left over for favored enemies. Personally I'd add a third class, but I usually play pvp, so all those favored enemies are overkill. Monk to me would be a good addition to pick up some more ac when dual wielding. Personally I never dual wield on dexers without monk levels because dexers are generally very reliant on AC, so it hurts not to have a shield.
Also, when you say "high magic" I assume perma-haste and lots of immunities, So I didn't really look to enhance saves or discipline much, but if you need to boost those, feel free to swap out some great dexes.
OMGosh! thank you very much! I didn't think I was going to get any help at all. I will be back to look it over when I get more than 5 mins.
Thank you ever so much! _________________ Regards, Chip
DocRufio's build is sound, but I have a few suggestions to alterations that will make it MUCH more playable.
Pre-epics: My suggested pre-epic feat progression: 1: Weapon Finesse 3: Exotic Proficiency 6: Weapon Focus: Kukri 9: WF: Sling 12: Blind Fight 15: Iron Will 18: Alertness
Weapon finesse at lv 1. This means you'll boost your AB by 7. -2 from strength vs +5 from Dex. Just sayin'.
Move alertness and Iron will to lv 15 and 18, combat feats give you much more playability earlier on, those two feats are just reqs, not useful, so postpone them.
As far as I'm aware, halflings can finesse, but not dual-wield shortswords. (they get the -4/-4 penalty instead of -2/-2 since both are small size) Instead, I'd take Exotic prof on lv 3 and WF: Kukri on lv 6. Those can be keened too, shortswords can't (I know keen SW exist, but spell-wise).
(Improved Critical isn't all that much IMO, your damage will suck anyway with the -2 from Strength)
Epic levels: All over good. I'll just say one thing: This build screams after evasion and Uncanny dodge. All that dex and reflex, and nothing to make use of it. Personally, I'd suggest dropping Ranger to 32 and take 3 levels of rogue. You'll get 2d6 sneak damage to help your useless melee output (and ranged!), you get Evasion to avoid tons of spell-damage, Uncanny Dodge to save you from surprise-attacks. Without it you WILL be in a world of pain. There is just so much more playability in three levels! Also opens for UMD (monk robes!), which is great. A single level of rogue on lv 21 or 22 means you won't have to cross-class persuade either. Just make sure to take the last level on 38 for UMD if you chose to.
Loss of two Favoured enemies and +1 to damage vs them isn't a great loss. 7 creature types is usually enough.
Skills: -Drop Concentration. You won't cast in combat anyway. -I can see Spellcraft, but that also only work every 5 points for saves, so leave it with 19 ranks (20) as opposed to tumble, actual ranks count, not invested ones. -Spot: You won't see any stealth-build with that low spot anyway, no use in taking that little. - Discipline: It will likely stop you from being taken down by other dex-builds, but any fighter will smack you down anyway if he hits. Not sure how useful it is, but ok.
Skills I'd like to see in this build: Hide, Move silently, UMD, Animal Empathy (if there are lots of animals around). You have that high dexterity, and even racial affinity, pair this with Camouflage and mass camouflage, trackless step and perhaps an epic skill focus in Move silently and you'll be invisible in broad daylight. We're talking 43+4(race)+4(wilds)+14(dex)+4 (One with the land) = 69 MS/89 Hide (with the Camouflage spells that last forever). That is a LOT.
To implement all this, it will take a few tweaks from the posted build, but as my character-calculator crashes after five minutes, I can't be bothered to make a full one myself.
You could also go elf with Shortswords and Longbow for an alternative.
I know you requested this build to be a Ranger 35 HS 5, but seriously, this build is pathetically weak. Perhaps you should listen to onion's advice and try to grow as a builder to understand how certain things work in this game instead of being so set on your ways, really.
I have a Ranger build, The Bane Crusher, which suffers greatly from lack of damage in the first 20 levels. However that build's deficiency is NOTHING when compared to this one's. IMO, if you fight ANYTHING that is not a favored enemy with even 5 points of damage reduction / resistance, you just WON'T BE ABLE TO DAMAGE IT AT ALL!!
Like onion said, there is a good reason why there aren't any 35/5 builds in this guild, especially with that class combo. I think you should REALLY reconsider and try to figure out a way for this build to do at least some damage against non-favored enemies.
My suggestion If you're set on doing a 35/5 build: do a STR based one with parry. It ain't much, but even that will suck less than this one...
One more thing, at level 21, take Bane of Enemies, not Armor Skin. BoE is THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT FEAT in this build. That is, assuming you can reach lvl 21, which I very much doubt...
Sorry for the open and excessive criticism, I know it must suck to get flamed like this, but try to think of it as constructive criticism and not take it personally. Nevertheless, I won't take it back, because IMO it's justified and most importantly TRUE.
If you wanna discuss this further, let me know, and I will try to explain to you some of the basics of character building so that you can understand what these guys are trying to tell you. Trust me, they know what they're talking about, and I have been, like you, on the other side of these comments in the past to know that you need to have a certain base-knowledge so that you can keep up with this guild in discussions and understand what they're trying to point out. To them it seems obvious, as it does to me nowadays, but to you it must feel overwhelming, because you lack the knowledge of the basics to be able to fully understand what is being suggested...
Take it EZ!
Max said it tho. If you want us to help you, you have to be more clear on what you want, what the environment you play in offers and how you intend to play it.
First off, read the post on the Ranger class in this forum. Its a great help.
Now, in order for us to give you any useful help, we need to know the following:
- Main class wishes (one or two core classes, but be open for suggestions to alter/add classes) - Main stat (are you thinking Dex-based or Str-based?) - Any special skills you wish it to have? (is IE stealth important to you?) - Do you want any special race? (if yes, is it fundamental?) - What is the magic level on your server? (+1 are rare or expensive/everyone run around in +5 at least/+10 are heard of/+20 for the uber epics? +1 Ability items, or can you easily fill the +12 cap with gear? Perma-haste? etc) - Any favoured weapon? - Intended for RP or PG? - Class/domain/alignment restrictions on your server? - Level cap, difficulty of leveling up, challenge rating, expected level? (on some servers it is not realistic to make the cap for instance)
All these things are important. However, it is also important for you to be open for changes or suggestions that differ from your original idea, because honestly, it might just suck or be very hard to make useful. I'll be honest, your request is vague and I say this (and have done so to several others before, so don't feel down) in order for us to be able to help you.
Edited By lillesmurfen on 07/27/10 17:24
Chip, after seeing what you went through with this request, it made me remember when I first joined, almost 3 years ago. I didn't have enough knowledge to understand what the guild elders were talking about, so they would say some things as if they were obvious and I'd be thinking: "what the hell are they talking about?". I don't want any more newcomers to go through the same thing, so I wrote a little guide that aims to reduce the HUGE GAP of knowledge there is between the elders and the newbies. Maybe now you can have a smoother transition from a regular player to a true Character Builder. It still won't be easy, but at least it will be easiER than before. Anwyay, Click Here to read it, and also get some coke or something to drink, cuz I kinda got carried away there .
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 07/27/10 22:31
You all are shooting this build down too soon. We don't know what the server is like. when i hear "high magic", I assume there is a decent amount of bonus damage on weapons to make up for the lower damage on the build, and really, 2d6+8 damage against favored enemies with so many favored enemies will go a long way. The build should have really good ab with so much dex, a full bab, and bane combined with a decent AC.
DocRufio's build is sound, but I have a few suggestions to alterations that will make it MUCH more playable.
Yeah, feel free to do whatever with the build. I usually don't pay much attention to feat order in a first draft, and I wasn't sure what the server was like, so I had no idea what skills were needed and just picked a few things.
I do suggest using a shield though, which is part of the reason why I just picked short sword focuses. I assume when you say "High magic", shields offer a good amount of AC bonus and other bonuses, so it would be more beneficial to use a shield than to lose the AC and dual wield, especially for a dexer that relies on AC.
Quote: You all are shooting this build down too soon. We don't know what the server is like. when i hear "high magic", I assume there is a decent amount of bonus damage on weapons to make up for the lower damage on the build, and really, 2d6+8 damage against favored enemies with so many favored enemies will go a long way. The build should have really good ab with so much dex, a full bab, and bane combined with a decent AC.
You only get BoE at level 24, dude, so throughout MORE THAN HALF OF YOUR BUILD, your damage will be just awful. In the build I mentioned, I played pretty much being a tanker while my companion would do ALL the damage. I didn't even bother to dual wield until I had Bane, which my build got at level 21. And I am talking about a halfling dual kukri build with 10 strength. That's 4 more strength than your build gets. Unless you get some high level character or a party to level you up it's simply UNPLAYABLE from 1-6, and pretty much downright frustrating until 24. After you get BoE, it gets a lot better, well, at least against FEs. Still has the problem of not doing ANY damage against anything else. Seriously, the only source of damage you'll get is for magic items, and any build in the same server will get the same thing. I can think of at least 4 or 5 builds that will have a better AC than yours and do much more of damage.
No offense, man, it's not personal, and it's not really your fault, since there's only so much you can do with a Ranger 35 / HS 5 spread. Technically, you could've gone for a Strength build, since the extra AC from DEX items is nothing compared to a full plate / tower shield combo. Go Fighter 10 Ranger 25 HS 5 and you will get WS / EWS and Devastating Critical. HS can give you 2 extra FEs instead of 2 DEX. Have you ever considered that your build will take MUCH MORE DAMAGE than a STR build simply for the fact that it will take 10x longer to kill every single enemy it fights? I am no mathematician, but if the enemy gets 2 rounds to attack you, even if it hits with 10 numbers more, it'll still do less damage than if it has 20 rounds to attack you with a higher AC. And mind you, the difference of AC between a STR build and a DEX build with the same spread is NOT 10.
That is why I advised the OP to read my article. After he reads it I am sure he'll understand why any build with a 35 / 5 spread sucks..
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 07/31/10 10:55
I'm never too concerned with early level playability if the scope of the server or module is 40 levels.
And you are right. This AC difference between wearing a full plate and tower shield and this build with robes of equal AC modifier and a shield is not 10, it is 11. This build will have an easy time caping dex with stackable cats and high magic items.
So I am a mathematician, and lets say you go str based and use a longsword and shield as opposed to finessing a ss and shield.
the best str you can get is 36 as a horc. You don't have any str buffing spells, so that is what you get.
AB: 45 w/ mundane lsword Damage: 1d8+13+2d6+8, which is an average of 32.5 AC: 22 (mundane full plate and shield)
now the dexer version gets 38 dex and can get up to +10 dex without any items, so AB: 52 w/ mundane ss Damage: 1d6-2+2d6+8, which is an average of 16.5 AC: 32 (mundane shield and robes and max cat's rolls)
So we can see that with mundane gear, the dexer does half as much damage, but hits much more and gets hit much less. Assuming the enemy has no damage reduction, the dexer is preferable. It will be a longer fight, but statistically the dexer is better. This is also assuming that the enemies AB is not far above or far below the ac of the characters and the ac of the enemy is also not far above or far below the ab of the characters.
Once you start adding in weapons with bonus damage, the dexer looks even better as the damage differential will never change, but the total damage will increase. With a +5 weapon with +1d8 elemental damage as an example, and say a +6 str item, the dexer now does an average of 29 damage per hit while the str based horc will do 45 per hit, while a difference of 11 AC means the dexer will be getting hit much much less. Say the enemy has a 50% chance of hitting the str toon, with 11 more ac the dexer will only get hit if they roll a 20.
Now I do agree that this build isn't the best and would benefit from a 3rd class, but I have built some dexer bane builds and know first hand how powerful bane can be when coupled with a decent weapon and some damage buffs.
Edited By DocRufio on 08/01/10 07:29
Quote: I'm never too concerned with early level playability if the scope of the server or module is 40 levels.
Then that IMO is your mistake. How do you get to level 20 if you can't get past level 2? If you have someone else level you up, then you see that this build is flawed and that is CAN'T BE PLAYED by itself. If that's the case, then to me that already kills the purpose. Unless of course you specify it's a level 40 build, then it's all good.
Quote: And you are right. This AC difference between wearing a full plate and tower shield and this build with robes of equal AC modifier and a shield is not 10, it is 11. This build will have an easy time caping dex with stackable cats and high magic items.
You as a halfling you can't use a tower shield. However, with stackable Cat's Graces, the bonus to DEX ranges from 4-10, which in terms of modifiers means 2-5. If you count in items, then perhaps you should also factor in that you don't have Uncanny Dodge, and therefore can be caught flat footed and lose all your DEX and Dodge bonuses to AC, which for a DEX-based character is really bad. And again, you're only thinking lvl 40 here, which is something I used to do a lot in my early days (avado can vouch for that ) and not the best way to go. As you progress as a builder, you find out the intricacies that lie hidden from plain sight within your build. When all you do is calculate for level 40, you're only doing half the building. Feat order is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT in any build. Remember that it may take you one hour to gain a level, sometimes much more! When I used to play online, I remember going from level 30-31 took me FOREVER! At least 8 hours, and that's not counting any deaths!
Quote: So I am a mathematician, and lets say you go str based and use a longsword and shield as opposed to finessing a ss and shield.
the best str you can get is 36 as a horc. You don't have any str buffing spells, so that is what you get.
AB: 45 w/ mundane lsword Damage: 1d8+13+2d6+8, which is an average of 32.5 AC: 22 (mundane full plate and shield)
now the dexer version gets 38 dex and can get up to +10 dex without any items, so AB: 52 w/ mundane ss Damage: 1d6-2+2d6+8, which is an average of 16.5 AC: 32 (mundane shield and robes and max cat's rolls)
So we can see that with mundane gear, the dexer does half as much damage, but hits much more and gets hit much less. Assuming the enemy has no damage reduction, the dexer is preferable. It will be a longer fight, but statistically the dexer is better. This is also assuming that the enemies AB is not far above or far below the ac of the characters and the ac of the enemy is also not far above or far below the ab of the characters.
Once you start adding in weapons with bonus damage, the dexer looks even better as the damage differential will never change, but the total damage will increase. With a +5 weapon with +1d8 elemental damage as an example, and say a +6 str item, the dexer now does an average of 29 damage per hit while the str based horc will do 45 per hit, while a difference of 11 AC means the dexer will be getting hit much much less. Say the enemy has a 50% chance of hitting the str toon, with 11 more ac the dexer will only get hit if they roll a 20.
Now I do agree that this build isn't the best and would benefit from a 3rd class, but I have built some dexer bane builds and know first hand how powerful bane can be when coupled with a decent weapon and some damage buffs.
There are many flaws in this calculation of yours.
1- You're only thinking in terms of level 40. Let's assume half of that: level 20. What would the damage difference be? and the AC difference? See what I mean??
It's cool IMO to make a build that matures at level 24- 25 when building for level 40, I have done that several times in order to maximize AB, but to make it so crippled that it simply cannot be played from 1-20 ruins it for me. The earliest possible level to take BoE is 21, and even then you HAVE TO assume that you won't be fighting FEs all the time.
2- Taking advantage of the prior mention, you won't be fighting FEs all the time. All your calculations look good on paper, but you seem to have forgotten that in this scenario, FE damage (a bonus-type damage) represent 95% of your damage. I ask you, how do you fight any other creature? Again the ONLY SOLUTION is to ask for help or rely on items. Your calculations show that your build does better against FEs, which I already knew from the start. Against non-FEs however... you get the point.
AB: 45 w/ mundane lsword Damage: 1d8+13, which is an average of 17 AC: 22 (mundane full plate and shield)
now the dexer version gets 38 dex and can get up to +10 dex without any items, so AB: 52 w/ mundane ss Damage: 1d6-2, which is an average of 2 AC: 32 (mundane shield and robes and max cat's rolls)
17 Average damage per-attack, against 2. I rest my case...
3- You don't start the game with 5 or 6 FEs, BoE and stackable Cat's Grace you start the game with ONE FE and a +1 bonus to damage against them. THAT'S IT! Try to kill something with that!
Your build is a bad (any 35/5 build is bad) level 40 build done as best as possible with the tools you have available. It's SO CRIPPLED that it WON'T KILL ANYTHING that has 5/- damage reduction unless it's a Favored Enemy. And let's not forget that in high-magic servers, monsters are made much tougher because of the abundance of powerful items, so you won't have an easy time even against a FE.
But what saddens me the most is the fact that the 2 of us are here discussing a VERY BADLY MADE request and the OP, which IMO needs to learn A LOT about the game, is long gone. Perhaps that's why he doesn't know anything...
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 08/01/10 12:01
Quote: Posted 08/01/10 07:21 (GMT) -- DocRufio
I'm never too concerned with early level playability if the scope of the server or module is 40 levels.
It feels like we are yelling at the sun to not set! LOL
I can appreciate what you are saying. I have been here for a bit of time (since 2004) and have seen it all and then some. Born at 40 builds, which is what you are suggesting, is one style of play. Mostly for pvp type servers where it is easy to level up, relatively.
A truly great build takes EVERYTHING into account. Look at Mith's builds, or Griz' builds or Cinn's etc. Works of art as well as effective.
Going 20 with one class then 10 then 10 is one way to build cleric 26 bard4 rdd10, but it isnt creative, and you will find that it isnt terribly effective. It has always been the subtle use of the *7 lvs for skill dumps, the interesting twists of multi-class, etc that show creativity. The ECB had some of the best minds in nwn, and we never cared for the "easy". Infact, one of the builds that comes to mind now is one that used ONE level of PM! While it wasnt my style of play, it showed that the builder was indeed using his hat rack for something more! Ranger 35/hs5 while a way to go, isnt that exciting and that this has gone on for 2 pages blows my creative mind.
.
) and not the best way to go. As you progress as a builder, you find out the intricacies that lie hidden from plain sight within your build. When all you do is calculate for level 40, you're only doing half the building. Feat order is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT in any build. Remember that it may take you one hour to gain a level, sometimes much more! When I used to play online, I remember going from level 30-31 took me FOREVER! At least 8 hours, and that's not counting any deaths!